Exploitation , is it?

IceCreamMan · 2012-06-15T07:40:33+00:00

A thread here got me thinking , and then i thought about a band i sort of know here in ZA , who were invited to play a big show in the states recently ...... the kicker was they had to arrange all their own flights etc at their own cost... and all these muso's who play for free, nay not free cos it actually costs em money...i also know the chap who ran a big festival , 90% of the bands who played his festival played for free persella, gratis and for nothing..... some coming from far away for the honour of doing so. this my dear forumites is nothing short of exploitation imho ..... actors/construction workers/drivers etc etc are unionised and may NOT work for nothing ,employers are prevented from employing ppl not belonging to a union of some sort (in the usa) yet musicians happily play for free, no, in fact they chomp at the bit for that elusive opportunity..... i understand the ambition , the motivation for muso's doing this but viewed in the cold light of day the promoters have an unfair "advantage" and thus exploit the guys....yip it can be dressed up anyway u like just my thoughts on this as a member in a "hobby" band ...nothing more , no offence intended

Nitebob

X-rated Bob wrote A union would work in this case if there was a significant uptake amongst the players. Then you have the strength to say to all the venues "we play for this much, and if you don't pay that much then we don't play".

So what's to keep them from saying: "Okay" and still hire the cheaper "non unionised" guys? Fact is, it'll always be supply and demand...

Bob-Dubery

Nitebob wrote
X-rated Bob wrote A union would work in this case if there was a significant uptake amongst the players. Then you have the strength to say to all the venues "we play for this much, and if you don't pay that much then we don't play".
So what's to keep them from saying: "Okay" and still hire the cheaper "non unionised" guys? Fact is, it'll always be supply and demand...

If the union manages to have 90% of active players signed (these are just figures for the sake of example) then any venues that don't want to agree to the union pay scale have got to pick and chose from the other 10%. So yes, it is supply and demand, but in this case the union may have control of supply.

It would have to be a MINIMUM wage though. There will be resentment amongst venues and musos if the excellent and good looking NiteBob, who is guaranteed to pull a good crowd, and the frankly awful (not to mention ugly, rude and flabby) X-Rated Bob, for whom two men and a dog would not show, are supposed to get paid the same.

exsanguinator

I think we need to drop the word "Union" and use a more noble "Association"...LOL
as I doubt too many musicians would have the time,guts or stamina to picket and toi-toi with placards,if the need arose,to demonstrate our dissatisfaction of the establishments disregard of our demands.
Which I think they would.
Because in reality,without the above aggression and longevity of picketing like Greenpeace tree huggers ,we wouldn't get squat.

Nitebob

exsanguinator wrote I think we need to drop the word "Union" and use a more noble "Association"...LOL

That sounds like the Mafia again

exsanguinator

Nitebob wrote
exsanguinator wrote I think we need to drop the word "Union" and use a more noble "Association"...LOL

That sounds like the Mafia again

Ja,they might confuse us with the Establishments...LOL...

Nitebob

exsanguinator wrote
Nitebob wrote
exsanguinator wrote I think we need to drop the word "Union" and use a more noble "Association"...LOL

That sounds like the Mafia again
Ja,they might confuse us with the Establishments...LOL...

Is that a bad thing...They might just give us the gig out of fear... ?

Bob-Dubery

I've been looking at the web site of the Musician's Union in Britain. There is more to what they do than just fight club owners over rates.

One of their initiatives is to seek a better situation for musicians who must travel with their instruments (the tools of their trade) but who run into problems with airlines.

They also agitate against venues that use recorded music rather than employ live musicians, especially in shows where live players are used initially or are advertised but then replaced with pre-recorded tracks.

They have also successfully agitated for car parking concessions in areas of London where there are lots of music venues and tight parking control (or expensive parking).

They also look at issues like copying of CDs, music education in schools and recovery of unpaid fees.

AlanRatcliffe

Nitebob wrote That sounds like the Mafia again

I for one think the MI needs some "waste management". ?

Jayhell

1. I blame the general population. If everyone was hungry for live music the demand would rise and clubs/bars/venues would have to supply good live acts and pay them accordingly. But we would rather sit at home, braai and listen to music than do the effort to go out and see a band. I know it sucks to drink and drive, get hijacked, freeze a bit, but then how passionate are you about music? Dress warm, go as a group and get a designated driver. Meet people, dance, play, start a revolutionary scene. The whole Seattle grunge phenomena started with people just going out. It's healthy to be social! One of the saddest things about being back in South Africa is how people don't mix and keep to themselves. 'That's not my people', F*&%^ that! Go out, make friends, find things in common.

2. I blame the Media, Rock 'n Roll (jazz, blues, anything with instruments) just isn't cool enough. It's cooler to go to a club where you can dress in your fashionable clothes, drink fancy drinks, listen to mind numbing music and hopefully get laid. Art isn't cool anymore, and I think that's what we are trying to do here (and get paid). Radio, TV and print should remind people that music that is actually made by people, live at a venue is what music is all about. Make live music cool again! 'Do you like any cool bands?' NO, I don't. I like good bands!

Have you seen those stickers on cars; 'think bike'? We should make those and say 'think rock'! get people aware of live music again. It doesn't matter who you are or what you like, there will be something out there for you! Even if Klipwerf Boere Orkes is your idea of a good time, go support them, they are hungry musos too.

So in my opinion; Start a revolution by going to see a band (any band) and enjoy it. DAMIT, enjoy it!

Nitebob

Jayhell wrote 1. I blame the general population. If everyone was hungry for live music the demand would rise and clubs/bars/venues would have to supply good live acts and pay them accordingly. But we would rather sit at home, braai and listen to music than do the effort to go out and see a band. I know it sucks to drink and drive, get hijacked, freeze a bit, but then how passionate are you about music? Dress warm, go as a group and get a designated driver. Meet people, dance, play, start a revolutionary scene. The whole Seattle grunge phenomena started with people just going out. It's healthy to be social! One of the saddest things about being back in South Africa is how people don't mix and keep to themselves. 'That's not my people', F*&%^ that! Go out, make friends, find things in common.

2. I blame the Media, Rock 'n Roll (jazz, blues, anything with instruments) just isn't cool enough. It's cooler to go to a club where you can dress in your fashionable clothes, drink fancy drinks, listen to mind numbing music and hopefully get laid. Art isn't cool anymore, and I think that's what we are trying to do here (and get paid). Radio, TV and print should remind people that music that is actually made by people, live at a venue is what music is all about. Make live music cool again! 'Do you like any cool bands?' NO, I don't. I like good bands!

Have you seen those stickers on cars; 'think bike'? We should make those and say 'think rock'! get people aware of live music again. It doesn't matter who you are or what you like, there will be something out there for you! Even if Klipwerf Boere Orkes is your idea of a good time, go support them, they are hungry musos too.

So in my opinion; Start a revolution by going to see a band (any band) and enjoy it. DAMIT, enjoy it!

Spend too much time playing in a band and recording at home...

Jayhell

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Spend too much time playing in a band and recording at home...
[/quote]

Closer to seeing a live band you can't get ? At least you are actively doing something for music.

vic

Psean

Nice one^
And...

Averatu

Blame the bands. You try book Freshly Ground. They're not my style, but they are generally playing big gigs or festivals in Europe etc, and you have to book them months in advance. They have something people are willing to pay to see. If your band is another sucky fake blues/ american rock/ metal rip-off performed badly, and no one is willing to pay you, who's fault is it? The venue, the public?

DonovanB

I'll just leave this here...

Sean

LOL ?

DonovanB

I do have to agree in part with Averatu. A good product will be in demand, and demand more money.

Bob-Dubery

Donovan Banks wrote I do have to agree in part with Averatu. A good product will be in demand, and demand more money.

I think it's more that a well known product with mass market appeal will be in demand. There's always going to be people whose relative lack of fame will leave you scratching your head and wondering why they're playing in small venues whilst some bunch of clueless idiots who might, between them, have one chop are filling soccer stadiums. And there'll always be the young guys who are trying to get their head above water level in the club scene so that somebody will notice them. IMO music lovers should be checking out goings on at the Chalkboard Cafe as well as going to some big anonymous bowl to see RHCP.

vic

From another musical angle.....we have the university conservatorium here and once in a while they put on some quartets and soloists during lunch breaks and early evenings....all relatively unknown (student) musicians. However these acts fill the Endler Hall to capacity (1000+)...why ?....the answer lies in quality and excellence which are somehow absent from a few of the regular blues -,rock - or metal outfits that grace the stages of our pubs and smaller venues.

Averatu

X-rated Bob wrote
Donovan Banks wrote I do have to agree in part with Averatu. A good product will be in demand, and demand more money.
I think it's more that a well known product with mass market appeal will be in demand. There's always going to be people whose relative lack of fame will leave you scratching your head and wondering why they're playing in small venues whilst some bunch of clueless idiots who might, between them, have one chop are filling soccer stadiums. And there'll always be the young guys who are trying to get their head above water level in the club scene so that somebody will notice them. IMO music lovers should be checking out goings on at the Chalkboard Cafe as well as going to some big anonymous bowl to see RHCP.

They started at the bottom, painting themselves up in all weird colors and doing the most outlandish performances, creating a reputation to the point that they where in a movie called 'Thrashing' in the 80's, and now they are coming here with a crew of what I understand is 120 to do some shows in the ass end of the world.

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