Sean
So I have approached bottledtone to build an amp head for me. I thought I would start a thread to keep a record of the build.
So, until recently, I was using 2 amps, a 100watt solid state Yamaha for my cleans, and the Vox AC4TV for my drive tones. I've sold both as I want a simpler solution...I also want a Craig amp ?
So, I was wondering if it would be a good idea to have a 2 channel 15 watt amp where the drive channel could be attenuated. So channel 1 would have the full 15 watts, and channel 2 could be switched to 5 watts for lower volume drive tones.
Bottledtone is working on some ideas to do this, but I was wondering if there were any thoughts out there about this?
Warren
That seems to be a pretty common feature on the lower wattage end of the guitar amp world.
Depending on your needs though, I'd recommend an even lower wattage option, maybe 2W or possibly even 1W. I found that Vox Night Train amp of mine to be too loud to really crank even at 7.5W, at least at home.
Having only 1 channel attenuated sounds tricky to me (I know as much about electronics as I do about Natalie Portman's contact details), I imagine it easier to just have an attenuator for the whole amp? Would you really need only 1 channel to be attenuated?
ezietsman
Another option would be to have him install VVR and scale the Phase inverter and Power tubes. That way you will have a knob that can smoothly control the wattage from max down to 0.5 watt or so. This all depends on what exactly you want out of the amp. Check out the Suhr Badger demos on youtube to see how that power scaling thing works:
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This way you can crank the amp to get overdrive and back off your guitar volume or switch pickups to get cleans. Not sure if you'd like this way of playing, but VVR will give you the option of doing that.
aja
So you want something like the blackstar artisan 15, but the 5/15W switch
only affects the drive channel?
hmmm
Sean
ShreddySmurf wrote:
That seems to be a pretty common feature on the lower wattage end of the guitar amp world.
Depending on your needs though, I'd recommend an even lower wattage option, maybe 2W or possibly even 1W. I found that Vox Night Train amp of mine to be too loud to really crank even at 7.5W, at least at home.
Yes, cranking the 4watt Vox I had was also pretty loud, and where I used it from time to time, I had it on the 1watt setting. But for where I plan on using it in future, I don't think 1watt would be sufficient, possibly the 2watt option might be better. The VVR that ez mentions sounds interesting though.
ShreddySmurf wrote:
Having only 1 channel attenuated sounds tricky to me (I know as much about electronics as I do about Natalie Portman's contact details), I imagine it easier to just have an attenuator for the whole amp? Would you really need only 1 channel to be attenuated?
I want the clean channel to have enough headroom to play at a reasonable volume and still remain clean. Then the drive channel to be at a lower wattage to drive the tubes but not be blown away by the volume.
aja wrote:
So you want something like the blackstar artisan 15, but the 5/15W switch only affects the drive channel?
Correct ?
SnapcaseZA
ez wrote:
Another option would be to have him install VVR and scale the Phase inverter and Power tubes. That way you will have a knob that can smoothly control the wattage from max down to 0.5 watt or so. This all depends on what exactly you want out of the amp. Check out the Suhr Badger demos on youtube to see how that power scaling thing works:
This way you can crank the amp to get overdrive and back off your guitar volume or switch pickups to get cleans. Not sure if you'd like this way of playing, but VVR will give you the option of doing that.
Wow, freaking amazing sounding. Just for interest sake I found this link on VVR's...
http://damacleod.wordpress.com/2010/03/12/installing-variable-voltage-regulator-vvr-in-a-valve-amp/
ezietsman
Bare in mind that with VVR you will need some kind of drive compensation somewhere, regardless whether you scale the whole amp, just the PI and Power section or just the power tubes. If you go with PI + PT like I suggested, your master volume (if its the kind that goes between the preamp and the phase inverter) will act as your drive compensation.
The short story is that VVR effectively lowers the headroom you have on the amp. It also lowers the power output of the power section. So if you turned the VVR down (and you are scaling the PI + PT) the phase inverter will have less headroom than before but the signal from the preamp is still large, causing the PI to be driven more than it would have been. You may like this or not. To keep the tone more or less intact when dialing the amp down you would compensate by turning the master volume down with the VVR, so you end up with the same amount of drive as the amp on full power. An upshot of all this is that with the VVR dialled down you can get more power tube drive out of the amp than when the VVR is letting the amp run at full power.
VVR is great, I recommend it heartily to anyone who asks, all amps I build for myself from here on will have VVR because it just rawks like that ?
bottledtone
Aja: Thats basically the idea I was settling on! Its turning the amp into a self-split output. I would go further to raise the cap on the output bias resistor out of the circuit when on the 5watt/self-split mode.
The other idea i had was to switch the output valves to a twin triode, like a 12BH7 or ECC99 or ...ECC82/12AU7, but then the output transformers impedance ratio would not be optimum, which means i would be switching the secondary side of the transformer to say change from 8k -16k.....um that would work.
I didn't want to go with a vvr switching in and out of the ht supply, because I fear there would be a delay in the power change, which i've witnessed before.
Gearhead
Could you not control this delay with another RC filter, that only comes into circuit upon switching on the VVR? I reckon the advantage of VVR with two settings is that you don't play your drive channel into a single ended power stage, just to keep the penthode push pull tone.
The thing that seems awkward about dial-in VVR is just that, the fact that you have to dial in the tone you want. If the one part of the song needs you to play gentle chorused arpeggios and the next bit needs subtle overdrive powerchords then you must turn around to your amp and quickly find the exact setting? Not going to work.
If it were my custom amp, I would certainly want footswitched VVR as well as 12AU7 / EL84 output independently. In fact, I guess the VVR settings should differ per output tube, so that you have the most versatile setup without adding too many components and complexity.
Let's assume you are playing an overdriven backing part with chords on the low wattage setting (because you can!) and you now want to solo with some more drive. This setting is not going to get you enough volume to even hear yourself over the rest of the band while playing single notes, no matter if you add preamp gain. So, you need to switch to the VVR'ed EL84 mode to get driven volume.
ezietsman
@Gearhead, the you can drive the amp and turn down for your soft, clean arpeggios just fine. The VVR has nothing to do with this. My amp has a bit of this delay effect too so switching the VVR to two different values may work but its not a method I would use. An easy way do play a driven amp like this, if you don't want to switch pickups and things, is to have a un-drive pedal (I dunno what they're called). Basically a pedal that makes the volume less to some predetermined amount. Set the amp for drive, step on the volume control pedal to get cleans.
But like I said earlier, playing driven tube amps is not everyone's cup of tea and its a skill one must learn if you want to use them like they used to...
Gearhead
No offense, but this is not what I 'm getting at at all. Of course I I realise you could adjust an amp to make this sound pretty, duh. What I'm saying is that in my opinion, a rig should be able to switch between different preprogrammed/adjusted settings in an instant. A knob that you turn and some other knob that needs to also be adjusted does not meet that criterium.
Your point about boost or volume pedals also does not work for me since the clean tone volume in that case can not be adjusted separately from the driven volume.
Fwiw I count myself into the category of guitarists that are more at ease playing an overdriven tube amp than anything else.
MikeM
I had a chuckle reading Ewald's reply to you Gearhead, I agree with you 100% and I am pretty sure gigging muso's would too.
ezietsman
I suppose the two of you are regular-gigging guitarists ne?
Besides, Sean is asking about possibilities of a custom amp i.e. anything is possible. It doesn't absolutely HAVE TO BE a multi-channel switching thing with wizzbangs and gurglers. Someone like Guthrie Govan uses a single channel amp exactly the way I describe, so I see it as a perfectly reasonable thing to do and hence mention it. Seems OK to me?
MikeM
Nope, but we know a bit about amp design and the needs of a money-earning muso.
ezietsman
MikeM wrote:
Nope, but we know a bit about amp design and the needs of a money-earning muso.
That's like saying programmers know best how to make websites look good (Hint 1: They don't, Hint 2: I'm one.), or engineers make the best-looking cars.
I agree with the two of you that most guitarists (Pro or not, I doubt money has anything to do with it) will want a rig like you describe, as it does make for more flexibility and you can then tailor each different patch/channel/effect to your liking. BUT, a custom, hand-built amp with all those features will be muchos more $$$. Sean will then be better off by buying an Axe-FX or something like that. You get all the flexibility and patches and whatnot in one go. But he wants a real amp. So hence, some of the flexibility will go out the window. That's why I said its not everybody's cup of fermented leaves with hot water.
One thing I have noticed during gigging is: the audience don't care. The only people who take note of anything (except the shiny gold guitar and some funny facepulling) are guitar players. So all the stuff we're talking about is what makes you as a player happy. That may be instant switching or it may be the control over the amp during a song I like. Sean may or may not know of the options, that's why he asked.
Gearhead
Maybe it's time for Sean to get his thread back on track?
Sean
You're exactly right ez, I'm not aware of all the options, so I do appreciate all the info. As far as controlling the drive and clean tones from the volume pot on the guitar, I have tried that. You're right, it is a technique and skill that is acquired and is effective. The problem for me ( but probably not everyone ) is that most of my playing is done while I'm also doing vocals, I found I can do the hand control thing and tap dancing on a pedal board when I'm not doing vocals, but I just don't have the time to practise getting all the stuff right while I'm concentrating on trying to sound half decent with the vocals as well.
The thing with bottledtones Brit 15 amp is that I would have taken it just as it is because I really like the tone, but if I can get some flexibilty from it to make it easier for me to sound the way I want while doing vocals, that will be first prize. It's a bit of a lazy way I suppose, but I'm not a pro muso, so why not ?
So yes, maybe I should clarify what I'm looking for. Tell me if its possible, not possible, unnecessary, silly or an easier way of going about it.
I like the clean tone of the Brit 15, so that's what I want at a gigging volume. I like the drive tone, but its way to loud when the amp is cranked, so I'd like that crunch on another channel (or whatever) at a lower volume, that would complement the clean volume. And then when I need to do a little riff or something, a dirty tone with enough volume to be heard. If I can get these three goodies with 3 taps of my foot, that would be cool. That's the basic idea. There will be other effects through the effects loop that I'll program in for different songs etc. but my basic need from the amp is those three requirements. Thoughts?
guidothepimmp
>☹
progress report?
guidothepimmp
Cheers... lookingforward to that..
Nicholas-L
A bit late on this topic, but most Mesa's these days all have power settings per channel.
