Sean
IceCreamMan wrote
MikeM wrote
That in mind, you are directly comparing a boutique, hand made amp, with a mass produced chinese...
Also, I doubt that it'd be under R2k with the same components.. Parts really add up.
if you buying 5 of and if you buying 2000 of the price of the same parts is reduced drastically ,,same parts completely different pricing ....
then add an assemly line type of scenario , efficient productive and cheap labour and without a doubt the same would be vastly cheaper.
boootik amps are expensive though , thats the nature of the model, low numbers high cost , high margins.
dont diss chinese made products just cos they are from china ....there is a lot of top class fabrication going on there when under licence.
Like Mike says, you don't see these high end components in chinese made amps (and I have no issue with them, I've owned a couple) Why are they not buying Orange Drops, Sprague etc in high volume then? Because it will certainly drive up the costs, even though their economies of scale will still be favorable, it won't be good enough. Shareholders have high expectations.
ezietsman
The issue here is not about sprague and orange drop caps and larnie transformers. Norman is correct about the labour. If you have humans building amps, the amps will be more expensive. A fast human can probably build one of these amps every day, if he/she has all the parts ready and it just needs to be put together e.g. you have the cab made, the transformers wound etc etc.
The 'cheap chinese' amps ICM is speaking of is not only mass-produced, but they are mass produced using machines that can construct the circuit of the amp in minutes and you just need a human to connect a few things and screw the stuff together. One human can do many amps per day like that. If you have to hand solder the turret board, low prices fly right out the window. R4k is not much if you ask me.
Any handmade components makes the price go up a lot. So in the case of Craig amps, the entire amp is made by hand, the circuit is soldered by hand and the turrets are knocked in one at a time. A Marshall Haze 40 circuit board probably takes a minute or two to be made by the robot. That doesn't make it sound worse, it just means you can build a 1000 in a day instead of 1.
MikeM
ez wrote
The issue here is not about sprague and orange drop caps and larnie transformers. Norman is correct about the labour. If you have humans building amps, the amps will be more expensive. A fast human can probably build one of these amps every day, if he/she has all the parts ready and it just needs to be put together e.g. you have the cab made, the transformers wound etc etc.
I disagree. I don't think the cost of labour is as high as people would think in this case, being that the bulk of this amp's cost is in the components. Amps can be made cheap, but if you're going to be buying MID range components, you can still easily spend R8k on components for a 20 watt head.
guidothepimmp
If the grillcloth is wool from them kiwi sheep and the timber is from that arb town in the middle of machu pichu, and the speaker magnet is made from strontium, I'll have one 8)
IceCreamMan
well in my humble opinion to spend 4 clip to get a 2 watt amp with a "classic marshall tone" is expensive irrespective of the components(but then i am a philistine). i can buy the made in the UK Class 5 amp with lesser componenets and get a true "marshall " tone for the same money with additional features and abilities....but then i am a cheapskate in that way.
initially jim marshall produced amps as a cheaper alnternative to Fender amps and jim was continiously looking for cheaper parts to create ampos with , kinda ironic that the classic marshall tone is actually based on cheaper parts (of the time)
MikeM
..
Sean
IceCreamMan wrote
well in my humble opinion to spend 4 clip to get a 2 watt amp with a "classic marshall tone" is expensive irrespective of the components(but then i am a philistine). i can buy the made in the UK Class 5 amp with lesser componenets and get a true "marshall " tone for the same money with additional features and abilities....but then i am a cheapskate in that way.
initially jim marshall produced amps as a cheaper alnternative to Fender amps and jim was continiously looking for cheaper parts to create ampos with , kinda ironic that the classic marshall tone is actually based on cheaper parts (of the time)
As in all gear, it comes down to how it sounds hey? And since a lot of this comes down to an individuals "ear", taste etc, if a commercially built amp (with cheaper components) sounds as good to you as a custom hand-built point-to-point amp (with top end components) then you've scored ?
ezietsman
Let's look at some numbers shall we?
Here's the contents of a GDS 18 watt combo kit, sans cabinet and speaker:
Full colour assembly manual by Graydon Stuckey
Drawings, layouts, schematics, diagrams, and photographs illustrate assembly
Ceramic tube sockets with gold plated contacts
Knobs for control panel
Fuse Holder
Vintage design Cliff input jacks
Sprague Atom and Orange Drop capacitors
Milspec fibreglas eyelet board complete with eyelets
Nylon stand-offs
Round amber (or red) indicator like early Marshall plexis
Custom designed power transformer, based on Radiospares original
Custom designed output transformer, based on Radiospares original
Aircraft aluminum chassis, CNC punched and bent, complete with no further work required
Anti-glare plexi panel - lazer cut and triple screened
NOS EZ81 tube and retainer
JJ (or similar) EL84 tubes and retainers
Sovtek (or similar) 12AX7 tubes and retainers
Transformers are Heyboer, highly regarded.
$770. Note that it includes a full colour manual, everything is included and everything just fits.
So there are 3 things here:
1. Someone wrote a manual to show you how to put everything together and test it. How many hours did that take? 20? 30? 50? Multiply that by $/hour for writing tech manuals.
2. Someone went through the effort of getting all the stuff together to send it off to you.
3. Someone made sure everything will fit together.
Now, a general rule of thumb for an 18 watt amp is that an experienced (not professional) builder can do it in about 20 hours. It took me much longer to do mine but I was 'extra careful' so I don't count. Maybe a pro can do one in 15 hours? 12? 10? Some of the pros here can chip in.
How much do you expect to pay an experienced amp technician to build you an amp? How much do they charge per hour to work on amps?
I know its not uncommon for amp techs to charge R250 per hour or more to work on amps. Even R150 per hour will make the labour R3k. R5k for R250/hour. I would guess the parts for the above amp should cost about R4.5k-R5.5k if you leave the manual out of it.
Labour is not insignificant compared to parts. It only is if you can build quickly but there's a human limit.
R4k is not a lot of money at all, and you get a handwired valve amp you can crank more often than some of these others, ask the Big Ass Amp(Tm) owners.
MikeM
So that's basically R7500 for that kit... Unbuilt..
Thanks Ez.
ezietsman
MikeM wrote
So that's basically R7500 for that kit... Unbuilt..
Thanks Ez.
Well, if you import it here then yes. If you have some of the heavy stuff made this side i.e. the chassis and the transformers that price will drop significantly. Maybe to R4k?
But yes, ICM is wrong to think that R4k is too much, it actually sounds too little.
MikeM
Transformers will still make up a few pennies.. Have you had any priced locally?
R4k is a really nice price. I was impressed!! And his work is FAR higher quality than the likes of J.C Le Roux.
Tokai-SA
Interesting.
The Rivera Fandango I used to own was in the emporium here for 7K for months, then it was reduced to 6.5K.
I don't think the seller got any enquiries, totally ignored...as far as I know the advert eventually expired.
A Rivera Fandango, handmade in California using the highest grade military spec components, as boutique as it gets...in 100% mint condition, a $2200.00 amp in the USA, one of the finest amps in the world...not a buyer to be found here at 6.5K.
Strange. :?
?
ezietsman
Tokai SA wrote
Interesting.
The Rivera Fandango I used to own was in the emporium here for 7K for months, then it was reduced to 6.5K.
I don't think the seller got any enquiries, totally ignored...as far as I know the advert eventually expired.
A Rivera Fandango, handmade in California using the highest grade military spec components, as boutique as it gets...in 100% mint condition, a $2200.00 amp in the USA, one of the finest amps in the world...not a buyer to be found here at 6.5K.
Strange. :?
?
That doesn't mean it cost less than that to make, which is what we're saying. Maybe nobody here will pay that money for a 2 watt amp, and then go home and push 0.5 watt out of their own amps. Strange indeed ?
MikeM
That Riviera actually tempted me..
I wouldn't say as boutique as it gets though ? Either way, for that price it is/was a steal.
Sean
Tokai SA wrote
Interesting.
The Rivera Fandango I used to own was in the emporium here for 7K for months, then it was reduced to 6.5K.
I don't think the seller got any enquiries, totally ignored...as far as I know the advert eventually expired.
A Rivera Fandango, handmade in California using the highest grade military spec components, as boutique as it gets...in 100% mint condition, a $2200.00 amp in the USA, one of the finest amps in the world...not a buyer to be found here at 6.5K.
Strange. :?
?
Not sure if it's a case of buyers unwilling to pay these prices, or unable to. I know my own disposable income is not what it used to be.
makepeace
Its also important to consider that in most boutique situations, every amp is not built by the actual 'pro'. Many of these boutique amp builders/companies will have a small number of pro's and a large number of 'technicians', or relatively cheap labour who will go through training in specific areas and then do the grunt work, being overseen by the designers/pro's/whatever you want to call them. I would imagine a number of stations with turret board drillers and stakers, chassis machinists, board wirers, assemblers etc. I think the builders that go it completely alone are very few and far between - it just doesn't seem lucrative. Hand wired does not implicitly mean that it was built by a fastidious amp geek.
Sure, the labour cost of manufacture is far less for chinese mass production, and that is definitely evidenced to the end user. However, I would say that a large portion of the time materials plays the bigger role.
MikeM
Wise words as usual bro ? And yep, you're right about the materials, we know that even resistors make a difference ?
guidothepimmp
MikeM wrote
Transformers will still make up a few pennies.. Have you had any priced locally?
R4k is a really nice price. I was impressed!! And his work is FAR higher quality than the likes of J.C Le Roux.
Out of curiosity, what makes you say craigs amps are "FAR" better quality than the likes of a JC le Roux?
Seems a pretty bold statement.. Having spent time with JC in his work shop, seen his work first hand and played his amps, I'm of the opinion that his work is pretty damned fine.. So to slag him off as inferior to the builder of craigs amp piques my interest..
IceCreamMan
the margins on boootik stuff is huge , exclusivity comes at a price ....a case in point ..a pair of LEvi jeans cost around 10 bucks to make , a pair of stone harbour jeans prolly around the same maybe a tad less..... they retail at vastly different price points..... Ask Tag Heuer the perceived value of the brand.
Apple saved +-30% on the cost of their phones with the same components and the same quantity of componenets (ie no increase in componenets bought) just by moving the production of their iphones to china.... i dare say the ciniese workforce is actually more productive than most on the globe.... so if apple can save 30 % imagine the savings which could be realised by increasing production and buying the same components in bulk ..... The chinese workforce are incredibly productive and able to change rapidly coupled with low salaries ....in the case of a hand built amp ...the labour costs are a huge component of the total cost .... someone else bandied a figure of R250 per hour for an amp techies time ....which is a fair rate ...in china the going rate for an amp builder is probably 10 rand an hour (if that much) so labour rate is 4% of the local rate !!!!!! if it takes 5 hours to build a hand built amp , local cost wouls be 1250 ,rate in china 50 rand ..... purring a mark up of 100% on ones time one can sort of deduce 2500 of the amps cost is labour and 1500 for the componenest (also at a 100% mark up rate) ... so stay with me here........ if the material cost is 750 and the labour cost is 50 ront with the same makrk up the amp would cost 1600 plus a lil for transport coming in well under 2k.... (qand thats without bulk component buy discounts) but we moving into economics now
the real question is ,are ppl prepared to pay 4k for a 2 watt amp, some here say they are , but have yet to actually buy it ...so talk is cheap... for my blood 4k for a 2 watt amp is too much.. btw , the componenets of this amp have been assumed to be best of the best , not actually proven as yet. Each to their own ...
guidothepimmp
Icecream, I agree..
You still owe me a barney though ekse, no wives allowed :?
