"full valve" marketing

bottledtone

I'm really seeing a lot of amp companies advertise their products as being "full" valve, but as a purest, they are lying!!
Now to me, full means rectifier, reverb, trem....everything.
I know this doesn't bother everyone, but is a right that someone is buying the one amp over the other because it too had a full valve amp label, yet it wasn't truly full like the latter they didn't buy?

Eg. Fender Princeton reverb is full, Blackstar HT5 is not, vintage AC30 full, AC30 custom series is not.

I've even heard a salesperson try sell a vox valvetronix as a valve amp!!

vic

I'm not too comfortable with your definition Bottledtone ? Reverb and trem are functions in an amp, solid state or valve....? To me a full valve amp has both a valve preamp - and - power section (with a valve rectifier as a bonus). Vintage AC30's or AC15's ('59-68) never had reverb for example. Interestingly, the AC30 CC (Chinese made) series is/was valve rectified (GZ34). Personally I like full valve amps to be point to point wired as well with not a PC board in sight ?

bottledtone

So two amps standing next to each other with the same features, one being valve only in all operations is going to be labeled as the same with the amp that has the same features controled by Solidstate? I think that is unfair to the company that really has got "full" labeled on it.

Then someone says that his amp is better priced than the other, and how the other amp is a rip off yet it contains cheaper solidate, and the other was more expensive but was true to its marketing.

Wizard

Glad this has been brought up, as I've had a question that needed answering for a while.

I assumed the whole valve vs. solidstate cult argument related only to signal amplification because of the different responses when the signal was overdriven.
The rectifier is not directly involved in amplification, but rather in providing power surely?

I do realize that a valve rectifier responds differently.

So I suppose the question is whether you're after:
a) valve signal amplification, or
b) a faithful replica of everything related to the "olden days" sound.

In which case you'd surely be best advised to buy an actual vintage amplifier ... or a faithful replica thereof in all of its glory (including valve rectifier, point to point hand wiring, old school caps, cloth covered wire, hand wired transformers, ...)

vic

bottledtone wrote: So two amps standing next to each other with the same features, one being valve only in all operations is going to be labeled as the same with the amp that has the same features controled by Solidstate? I think that is unfair to the company that really has got "full" labeled on it.

Then someone says that his amp is better priced than the other, and how the other amp is a rip off yet it contains cheaper solidate, and the other was more expensive but was true to its marketing.

aah...I now get what you're saying. Sure, I agree.

Bob-Dubery

These marketing terms seldom mean anything. A cynic might say they are devised to bamboozle the buyer, or boost the buyer's ego.

Even terms like "free range" don't actually have a fixed definition in many territories.

Whilst I would like to know if my amplifier were all valve, or had valves for amplification but a solid state rectifier or whatever, I tend to ignore these marketing terms. If you buy a "hand made" guitar what do you expect?

No automation?
Assembled by hand, but some pieces off of a production line?
Every piece carved from wood using chisels and then sanded by hand?

The term ultimately is meaningless, and doesn't guarantee a superior instrument.

I'm not defending the marketing practice, but it's better to ask specific questions about the aspects that concern you. And also just to plug in and play - that'll tell you the most important stuff of all.

Keira-WitherKay

? yeah be careful of marketing hype or in fact some reviews on internet . I often see errors or un truths about spec's of gear

vic

Wizard wrote: Glad this has been brought up, as I've had a question that needed answering for a while.

I assumed the whole valve vs. solidstate cult argument related only to signal amplification because of the different responses when the signal was overdriven.
The rectifier is not directly involved in amplification, but rather in providing power surely?

I do realize that a valve rectifier responds differently.

So I suppose the question is whether you're after:
a) valve signal amplification, or
b) a faithful replica of everything related to the "olden days" sound.

In which case you'd surely be best advised to buy an actual vintage amplifier ... or a faithful replica thereof in all of its glory (including valve rectifier, point to point hand wiring, old school caps, cloth covered wire, hand wired transformers, ...)

These components are important and they define the tonal characterisitics of valve amps. That's why the modern AC30 sounds different to a 40 year old vintage AC30...and it's not because the vintage AC30 is old, but rather because its insides have subtle different specs for eg. the transformers and caps. It is expensive to make handwound trannies and oil caps, let alone the labour cost of a point-to-point wired chassis. In the UK and particularly at Jennings Musical Industries (JMI) these were done by women (the wire-girls ...Dick Denney's wife Dolly was a "wire-girl" ? )

Durind the mid-60's and onwards, many AC30's were "upgraded" to solid state rectification...in this way one could squeeze out an additional 5 watts or so....but those examples are audibly more noisy, run hotter and are less mellow than their GZ34 counterparts.

singemonkey

It's fair to expect the customer to do some research. All-valve = all valve amplification. They're lying if either the pre-amp or the power-amp is solid state.

Some people want the classic sound of certain "all-valve" amps that had SS rectifiers, and some want the sag of a tube rectifier (that's me) - but classic tube amps have been made with both.

The effects that are built in? Sure, it's disappointing if the original had warm tube circuits and a reissue uses ss. But they really aren't amplifiers, so I don't think anyone's telling porky-pies.

But then I don't care much about much since eating some bad sushi last night... ?

ActionArnie

Are "full-valve" amps allowed to use LEDs?

AlanRatcliffe

As the owner of a '63 Twin (SS rectification), I have to agree with Singemonkey - if pre- and power-amp are valve, it's a valve amplifier, everything else is bonus (or not... I prefer a SS rectifier).

And yes there's been a lot of misleading marketing, but that's marketing for you. At least the general guitar buying public is fairly well educated in these things these days.

bottledtone

ActionArnie wrote: Are "full-valve" amps allowed to use LEDs?

Hahaha ? good one.

vic

bottledtone wrote:
ActionArnie wrote: Are "full-valve" amps allowed to use LEDs?
Hahaha ? good one.

LED's....No a big NO....and especially not blue ones.....that's heresy ? an all- valve amp should only have one light, the pilot light, which is a true light bulb...and maybe also a "standby"mode bulb.... ?

bottledtone

This thread is not a SS vs Valve, its mis-using the term "full".
But you guys are saying "as long as it signal path!" But what about an HT5/1? It has a SS phaseinverter! Or a 20th anniversary H&K has lots of SS in preamp in the "signal path"
Its just when a short cut has been taken and they use full valveamp, what lterm" must the real full valve use? "Uber full","extreme full", full 2 da max"

vic

a Good textbook example of a full-valve, all-valve, etc., amp is the '59 Fender Bassman (combo)..... early Marshalls were spin-offs of that design...the AC30 maybe less so ?

TomCat

Vic wrote:
bottledtone wrote:
ActionArnie wrote: Are "full-valve" amps allowed to use LEDs?
Hahaha ? good one.

LED's....No a big NO....and especially not blue ones.....that's heresy ? an all- valve amp should only have one light, the pilot light, which is a true light bulb...and maybe also a "standby"mode bulb.... ?

WHAT NO LED's..... ? ?....Oh well.....my TC-8w has a Blue LED for the power..... :? :?.....and one for the tonestack bypass....and one for the OD channel....and...... ? ?.....Still sound good though and it's all Valve through the signal path and an EZ-81 Recto..... 8) 8) 8) 8)

vic

TomCat wrote:
Vic wrote:
bottledtone wrote:
ActionArnie wrote: Are "full-valve" amps allowed to use LEDs?
Hahaha ? good one.

LED's....No a big NO....and especially not blue ones.....that's heresy ? an all- valve amp should only have one light, the pilot light, which is a true light bulb...and maybe also a "standby"mode bulb.... ?
WHAT NO LED's..... ? ?....Oh well.....my TC-8w has a Blue LED for the power..... :? :?.....and one for the tonestack bypass....and one for the OD channel....and...... ? ?.....Still sound good though and it's all Valve through the signal path and an EZ-81 Recto..... 8) 8) 8) 8)

LOL !
Forgot to mention that a valve amp should have them cobwebs in between the caps and wiring and so on....also on the speaker cones....it definately enhance tone ?

Wizard

My Fender SuperChamp XD is a nice case study here.
Valve pre-amp & power amp; with SS effects which can be turned on & off.
Qualify as a "full valve" amp or not?

vic

Wizard wrote: My Fender SuperChamp XD is a nice case study here.
Valve pre-amp & power amp; with SS effects which can be turned on & off.
Qualify as a "full valve" amp or not?

I would say yes, it's a full valve amp (with SS driven effects). The effects' circuits are probably completely disconnected from the valve circuit. It will have the tonal characteristics of a valve amp while its effects may sound "transistor-like". Valvetronix amps are not as these have one valve in the pre-amp only...their power section is SS.

ezietsman

Its all moot if you take a small step backwards and remember that 99% of EVERYONE will stick multiple floorpedals in front of and into the loop of the amp, given half a chance. Bye-bye 100% valve signal path.

So, my opinion is the same as Alan and Singemonkey, valves in pre and power amp (preferably phase inverter too) and the rest can be made of ice-cream for all I care. That will at minimum give you some kind of valve-like response to boost pedals and amp-cranking. Horses for courses and all that. The HT5 is a very modern sounding amp and is meant for bedroom metalheads. It is also meant to be cheap and reliable, hence the reason for its 2 toobz instead of more.

I guess it all boils down to marketing speak and how much people care about it. I'm not convinced that a (lets call it) 50% valve path is worse than a 100% path. Better / worse for what exactly?