My rant about the sate of affairs in SA music.

Averatu · 2012-01-18T17:23:57+00:00

I posted a thread named http://www.guitarforum.co.za/general-music/how-do-you-promote-your-gigs/ with a poll attached. I thought I'd let it run for a month, the forum supposedly has 5k members, you could expect a 5 % turnout? At the conclusion, we have 20 members taking the vote. From the low participation rate and personal experience I could think of two reasons: 1. Most bands and musos are oblivious to the need of marketing their gigs, the 'If the band is good people will come see us” crowd. 2. Most bands and musos are selfish, not wanting to reveal their secrets, the “My way to the top is by climbing up your back” crowd. So in my years of dealing with bands and musos, I've found option 2 is the most common. From backstabbing to downright sabotage of other bands gigs, not to mention the standard “Battle of the Bands” colluding against the strongest candidate tactics etc. etc.... This “selfish” strategy ignores the basic dynamics and structure of our music industry. It is small, a fish bowl, and very fragmented. Everyone is fighting for their little corner of the market. What’s a fraction of a fish-bowl? A shot glass? So you can be a big (sel)fish in a shot glass. So how about an “anti-Battle of the Bands”, or a “Cooperation of the Bands”. Would it not be wiser in the long run to rather work together towards building a stronger, healthier music scene, thus increasing the total market share for everyone? I say buckets for everyone!!! CLARIFICATION UPDATE: I see the indifference to above mentioned poll as a symptom of the bigger problem. I was not expecting a monster turnout, it does not phase me in the slightest that it had a luke warm response. So sodd the damned poll already!! Have a nice day.

singemonkey

Counterpoint: SA bands are not competitive enough

Cooperation is not the only way to go. Now I hear you that backstabbing is counter-productive when you're off stage. People stay in this "industry" a long time and people remember this stuff. Like the way one of SA's biggest rock bands used to mess with opening bands' sound for laughs, and complain to the bands without advertising deals about how tough it was to be famous.

But onstage the opposite problem occurs: Good-enoughism. It's so great to be able to get up and play that you don't think it's important to give your audience their money's worth. And part of that is that you should be the best thing on that freakin' stage. And that means, being better than everyone else who's up there. If you think this No-wegian metal band is painfully derivative, get up their and put on a show that is both original, and blows them out of the water. That's the surest way this guy will stop buying ernie-ball signature pants. And it will improve the quality of SA music.

Hendrix didn't pre-plan his Montery guitar burning. He did it because the festival said that The Who were going to headline. So he thought, 'right, motherf*&^#$s, follow this."

IceCreamMan

in economic terms, seems the bands are competing over some part of the pie so to speak ..... by coperating you increase the chances of actually increasing the size of the pie and thus everyone benefits.... a slight paradigm shift.

but in the long run we all dead so what the hell

singemonkey

IceCreamMan wrote but in the long run we all dead so what the hell

Haha! That's the spirit ?

Raising the standard of live performance will also increase the size of the pie, let us not forget. 3 gigs in a row of shoe-gazers with no apparent interest in entertaining their audiences can turn someone off seeing live bands for literally years.

majestikc

singemonkey wrote Counterpoint: SA bands are not competitive enough

Cooperation is not the only way to go. Now I hear you that backstabbing is counter-productive when you're off stage. People stay in this "industry" a long time and people remember this stuff. Like the way one of SA's biggest rock bands used to mess with opening bands' sound for laughs, and complain to the bands without advertising deals about how tough it was to be famous.

But onstage the opposite problem occurs: Good-enoughism. It's so great to be able to get up and play that you don't think it's important to give your audience their money's worth. And part of that is that you should be the best thing on that freakin' stage. And that means, being better than everyone else who's up there. If you think this No-wegian metal band is painfully derivative, get up their and put on a show that is both original, and blows them out of the water. That's the surest way this guy will stop buying ernie-ball signature pants. And it will improve the quality of SA music.

Hendrix didn't pre-plan his Montery guitar burning. He did it because the festival said that The Who were going to headline. So he thought, 'right, motherf*&^#$s, follow this."

+100 000

This is really really true as well, it fit's more along the lines of just being a quality band in every way, music, production, live act, live sound, having something different to offer (if even slightly) etc etc etc

Hammeron

Just for the record:
As far as I can tell Laiho and the other COB guitarist play ESP's. {Laiho's being a Rhandy Rhoads style V}
The Av Kodens play a BC Rich Warlock and a Dean Razorback.
So there is no copy catting there.

majestikc

My bad, although I swear they once used the Alexi Laiho V guitar

Hammeron

I know the guys from Riddare personally and I know for a fact that at the show you refer to where they only played 2 songs, that one of the contributing factors was that the Warlock's bridge collapsed.
I did not attend the Ensiferum shows so I shan't comment on them.

And while we are on the subject, I think that RAK should be given some credit for bringing such a major act as Ensiferum to these shores.

majestikc

RAK wouldn't of been to pleased to hear what the one Ensiferum guitarist said about the S.A metal bands they played with though, we spoke to him after the second gig, was pretty embarrassing.

If you know the band don't take it personally and make excuses for them etc, that's kind of the main problem with too many S.A bands, all their friends tell them how great they are and defend them at every turn, rather than maybe being a bit constructive with them so they can improve.

(and I don't mean YOU personally, just in general)

Recently someone I know asked me to tell them honestly what I thought of their music, so I DID, at first you could see there was kind of a "well screw you" look and attitude but later the guy actually thanked me for being honest, now he knows he can really trust my opinion, rather than all his other friends telling him how amazing his cd is yet none of them want to buy it or come to his gigs, let alone anybody else, at least now he knows he has some work to do.

I'm sure RAK have spare guitars at their gigs, if not it's a very amateurish move for such an esteemed band, remind me to never buy a BC Rich guitar either.

But like I said, each to his own, I don't mean to rag on Riddare Av Koden, they just happen to be useful as an example right now. If they're out there playing and enjoying it and people are enjoying it then it's all good, more power to them.

For me it's just this really low bar we've seemed to accept that get's to me the most.

"That guy plays guitar, it's awesome"

"Does he play guitar well?"

"No he plays like shit actually"

"............................... ???"

Hammeron

Just putting another side to the story out there. You spoke to one of the Ensiferum guitarists I spoke to the RAK guitarist, simple as that.
I agree with you that most people have difficulty in giving honest criticism if it's negative, this is human nature I suppose.
Be honest, I appreciate that.

kayDUB

majestikc wrote Recently someone I know asked me to tell them honestly what I thought of their music, so I DID, at first you could see there was kind of a "well screw you" look and attitude but later the guy actually thanked me for being honest, now he knows he can really trust my opinion, rather than all his other friends telling him how amazing his cd is yet none of them want to buy it or come to his gigs, let alone anybody else, at least now he knows he has some work to do.

This!

I'd rather have honest (UNBIASED) constructive criticism than people just telling me "You're great". Sure it might feel like someone slapped you in the face at first, but it'll put you in a position where you can constantly get better. By unbiased criticism I mean things like if you play in a blues band and I'm in a metal band and you tell me I should use more I IV V progressions - BIASED! ? All "constructive criticism" should pass through the old filter - but be realistic, most times you will find something of value! ?
And even if you get a "you're great" it's also good to know exactly what they think is great about you.

I think the question is do I just want to feel good about what I'm doing/playing or do I actually want to get somewhere and get better.

Keira-WitherKay

as for opinions in music biz................... keep em to yourself............

cos lets face it if you believe you can tell ...and let me add and specify an "ORIGINAL" artist (NOT A COVER MUSO) that his/her music, style ect is 'rubbish" (please insert more colourful word ..........but this is an R rated forum) or needs work ..........you need to think again .......... and realise you can't judge art ............ ...

people have critisised the most amazing artists , the beatles were rejected by record companies only weeks before being "huge" by someone thinking they "knew " the biz better ........... i remember the time when i heard grunge bands would never achieve anything cos they were too messy and basically garage muso's who could barely play ??? but how many grunge bands were huge???? how many people think jazz is just noise ...or that dance music is rubbish ......... we even have the justin beiber haters on this forum ( see the posts) but he's sold millions ............so whats that prove.........

so who says someone however musically uneducated or not to your liking won't be the next "big thing" in 6 months ........... and thats the joy and pain of "art" is that sometimes the ones achieving popularity or commercial success are not the virtuosa's or the ones which have followed the paths of previous artists........

AND of course you allowed to NOT like or even hate another bands work............thats your perogertive.......... but keep it to yourself.........

and unless the person critisising is my manager or record company or they themselves have a string of hit records and world wide success i would take any critisism with a huge pinch of salt...... cos it's my art ...with my vision and my career .......

i never could understand the 'competitiveness" to the point of being "nasty" in the scene ......and it seems rife........is it jeolousy that the other band is doing the gig and NOT that person ....... and it's not just here it's internationally too........ and not a new thing either .....

but anyway i'm not saying you need to like everything you hear but rather be supportive than critical ........

and if you think you can do it better don't critisise others but go out there and do the gigs yourself and prove it .......cos talk is cheap .......and we know what people say about opinions ....

a fabulous story is told by Bob on the forum who was at a TJ's open mic night where steve newman (acoustic virtuosa) performed, and steve is reported to have actually walked up to artists who were way "below par" as it was an open mic night and speak to them and thank them for their contibution.....NOT tell em how they sucked and should be better ........... or how to fix their act.......... so be supportive ......it will be better utlised in making that person a better artist

PeteM

I think that an unsolicited crit is a cheek and blatant one-upmanship.

Bob-Dubery

Keira WitherKay wrote a fabulous story is told by Bob on the forum who was at a TJ's open mic night where steve newman (acoustic virtuosa) performed, and steve is reported to have actually walked up to artists who were way "below par" as it was an open mic night and speak to them and thank them for their contibution.....NOT tell em how they sucked and should be better ........... or how to fix their act.......... so be supportive ......it will be better utlised in making that person a better artist

I was very impressed by Steve Newman on that evening - not just as a player but as a person. He wasn't getting paid, knew before he walked in there that he wasn't going to get paid, was friendly and supportive AND offered TJ's a commission on the CDs that were sold during the night. I was the MC that night and Steve thanked me for having him there. The guy is a complete gentleman.

Just to show that it's not all hell and backstabbing out there, there were GFSA members there that night, some of them very good musicians, making their first visit to TJ's and, without being asked, they helped pack the PA away at the end of the night.

It's not universal (musicians being human, after all) but I've often seen quite a different side of the coin. I've seen a long-term professional who has tasted the big time, Cindy Alter, sit through other people's sets at Andy McGibbon's shows and applaud them and pay attention and generally act respectfully to other performers even though they are part-timers. We've had several professional players come to TJ's and be a pleasure to work with and give a maximum effort even though they know there's no money in it for them. I'm currently in contact with Joshua Grierson who agreed to play at TJ's, then, for good reason, had to cancel (giving me plenty of notice) and is STILL determined to meet what he regards as a commitment and is trying hard to do so (off his own bat, TJ's are not pressuring him in any way or even reminding him).

Nechama Brodie got a break of sorts via TJ's which led to her getting a spot on one of Andy McGibbon's shows - both times she did very well. Laurie Levine was also on Andy's bill and her response was to give Nechama an opening spot at an album launch.

So I see a lot of good, generous attitude as well.

Averatu

Tamla Kahn 'Hammeron' McMahon wrote I know the guys from Riddare personally and I know for a fact that at the show you refer to where they only played 2 songs, that one of the contributing factors was that the Warlock's bridge collapsed.
I did not attend the Ensiferum shows so I shan't comment on them.

And while we are on the subject, I think that RAK should be given some credit for bringing such a major act as Ensiferum to these shores.

They got physical with each other on stage! Really Lame! The vocalist/guitarist quit right after the tour, and later the drummer. I doubt it could all be about a collapsed bridge. They where un-prepared, they where not rehearsed. A left handed guitarist who gigs without a backup is just being irresponsible. I've had equipment fail at gigs, effect units fail, broken guitar, you have a backup! The result is that they will be remembered as the band that played 2 songs and rage-quit infront of 200 people.
This sux for them, but what can we learn from this?

IceCreamMan

Averatu wrote
Tamla Kahn 'Hammeron' McMahon wrote I know the guys from Riddare personally and I know for a fact that at the show you refer to where they only played 2 songs, that one of the contributing factors was that the Warlock's bridge collapsed.
I did not attend the Ensiferum shows so I shan't comment on them.

And while we are on the subject, I think that RAK should be given some credit for bringing such a major act as Ensiferum to these shores.
They got physical with each other on stage! Really Lame! The vocalist/guitarist quit right after the tour, and later the drummer. I doubt it could all be about a collapsed bridge. They where un-prepared, they where not rehearsed. A left handed guitarist who gigs without a backup is just being irresponsible. I've had equipment fail at gigs, effect units fail, broken guitar, you have a backup! The result is that they will be remembered as the band that played 2 songs and rage-quit infront of 200 people.
This sux for them, but what can we learn from this?

Yip they climbed into each other cos the one oke was pissed that the other oke had called it a night without completing the set ....a disgrace and an an aboslute slap in the face to the paying public.... they shoulda refunded me

it was a dogshow ..... but thats rock n roll man ......

Averatu

This is what I'm talking about.
http://www.metalunderground.com/news/details.cfm?newsid=7

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