My rant about the sate of affairs in SA music.

Averatu · 2012-01-18T17:23:57+00:00

I posted a thread named http://www.guitarforum.co.za/general-music/how-do-you-promote-your-gigs/ with a poll attached. I thought I'd let it run for a month, the forum supposedly has 5k members, you could expect a 5 % turnout? At the conclusion, we have 20 members taking the vote. From the low participation rate and personal experience I could think of two reasons: 1. Most bands and musos are oblivious to the need of marketing their gigs, the 'If the band is good people will come see us” crowd. 2. Most bands and musos are selfish, not wanting to reveal their secrets, the “My way to the top is by climbing up your back” crowd. So in my years of dealing with bands and musos, I've found option 2 is the most common. From backstabbing to downright sabotage of other bands gigs, not to mention the standard “Battle of the Bands” colluding against the strongest candidate tactics etc. etc.... This “selfish” strategy ignores the basic dynamics and structure of our music industry. It is small, a fish bowl, and very fragmented. Everyone is fighting for their little corner of the market. What’s a fraction of a fish-bowl? A shot glass? So you can be a big (sel)fish in a shot glass. So how about an “anti-Battle of the Bands”, or a “Cooperation of the Bands”. Would it not be wiser in the long run to rather work together towards building a stronger, healthier music scene, thus increasing the total market share for everyone? I say buckets for everyone!!! CLARIFICATION UPDATE: I see the indifference to above mentioned poll as a symptom of the bigger problem. I was not expecting a monster turnout, it does not phase me in the slightest that it had a luke warm response. So sodd the damned poll already!! Have a nice day.

Airguitar

Riaan C wrote As I DID vote in the poll, my two cents ?

I play on the cover circuit in the Cape Town area, so I can only speak to that particular geographic and format experience. I suspect it may be different with original bands (trying to forge a sound, develop new material, get signed to a small pie, etc), but in the Cape the cover bands generally get on well - and collaborate to a fair degree.

There are a core group of outfits who attend each others gigs, come up and jam a song or two, and even sit in for a member if someone becomes unavailable, etc. There's also a great initiative called the Fuzzbox, which is a monthly collective where musos pitch, spend the day and play in various combinations of the different bands - no money involved - just for fun and cameraderie. London Town Pub has also now started a Sunday Buskers format, which is like an open mic for established artists and bands. Boils down to a jam and a jol. Sound Studio is another venue where there are often more musos in the crowd than general punters - supporting each other.

So that is my experience of the Cape Town cover circuit. There are some backstabbers - but we all know who they are. The other 85% get on well! ?

I like this

AlanRatcliffe

Good points so far. Co-operation is vital and the guys that don't rarely have staying power.

The top Cape Town jazz players all work together similar to the cover bands that Riaan mentions, but even more so. It's not unusual to see different lineups of the same band each time you see them and it can be as a duo in a restaurant or as a 12-piece on a festival stage. It's called "pickup playing" - one guy gets a gig and then phones around to see who is available to form a band suited to the size of the venue.

Averatu

I was first introduced to the concept of "The Anti_Battle of the Bands" by a guy called Brendon Green of http://www.greenafricaparty.co.za/. We did a few gigs with them, and we helped with sound a few times, and the formula works. (we did not really fit in, a metal band with a bunch of world music acts just didn't work). One guy has a venue, another guy has some PA, together with my PA and that guys monitors we have a gig of 5 bands. Try as I might, I cant get any metal/hard rock bands involved in a collaboration like this. It could be my lovely personality, may be I'm going about its ass about face, but hey, I tried.

I think us humans eventually learn that if a behavior has more negative outcomes than positive, then its time for new habits. Every society have, thru trial and error in their development, eventually come to roughly the same conclusion. Do unto others. The golden rule. It makes so much sense that the major religion underpinning western civilization even adopted it.

Seventhson

sharonzaz wrote Things are likely to not change.
where making money is involved and other ppl making money vs perhaps you making
that same money (and by YOU i mean anyone) then the swords are gonna come out.

buddy, i have been stabbed in the back, stomach and every other body part
by so many musicians that i am Swiss cheese.
it is what it is.
and the more successful the bands are, the bigger the swords come out.

in F1 racing, drivers have before driven purposely into other drivers
making sure that driver do not finish his race and get his points.
doing so was a shot in your own foot as you lost your points and your car
but hey, the other guy also was out right?

the world is full of this kind of action and as pathetic as it is,
you better wake up and if not join the gang, atleast learn to defend yourself.

perhaps in the future we humans would learn to be different, i for one hope so.

Lol dude yeah that sounds like the music industry every where. Avaratu I totally understand why you are angry about it.

Averatu

Keira WitherKay wrote almost tempted into a rant on the local scene .......but rather not ?

The can of worms is already open.
Spoon?

majestikc

It's pretty shitty but it's like that everywhere, be thankful that the ratio of bands is quite small in this cuntry (oops, I left out the "o") compared to the USSR-of-A etc.

There's a lot more backstabbing and fighting for the scraps in the bigger countries and not only that, but if your a smaller band in America, for instance, you're not only competing with other small bands but you're competing with the huge successful band from all over the world who happen to be putting on a much bigger, better show than you are on the same night. The fans are a lot more spoiled there.

I have no idea what bands are playing and where, to be honest I'm just not interested anymore in seeing an average band with abysmal sound (see other thread), which is usually what you get if you take a chance and just show up at one of the band-venues.

I want to actually go out, waste my time and money, on seeing S.A bands as much as I want to watch one of those S.A movies they show on dstv now and again......which is NEVER.

It's mostly about the quality, or lack thereof, I KNOW I'm not going to be blown away even the slightest when I check out a new band and eventually, after going through the same thing for more than 10yrs, it eventually get's old, it becomes more of an unenjoyable effort than something you look forward to doing, which is pretty sad really.

For me, if there was a really good S.A band I would support them and buy all their music and go to all their shows because I would WANT to, not because I thought I HAD to, you have to "support S.A music dude"............(the same way you have to help and support a cripple up the stairs).

There shouldn't be any need to "support" local music any more than there's a need to "support" international/good music.

When Rammstein and Coldplay and U2 etc all came here people didn't feel obliged to go "support" those bands, they WANTED to go and were all excited to go, and paid good money to go.

Not to mention Rammstein had absolutely NO advertising whatsoever beside a Facebook post saying they were coming to S.A.

Bands can shove fliers in my face and spam me and post on Facebook and put posters up and have naked girls walking around with the venue and date written on their boobies all they want, I'm just not interested anymore in local music or supporting it, as bad as that sounds.

That was my TINY rant over.

Jack-Flash-Jr

Aaaaah Mr Majestikc... thou missest out. Part of the joy of music is the joy of discovery... and there's more out there than you think. Maybe you just don't like live music?
Some bands I knew nothing about but took a chance and was blown away:
Blk Jks
Dear Reader
Goldfish (before the explosion)
Saron Gas (now Seether)
SNG (in 199something)
Big Nuz
Shadow Club (by rep and album)
Every now and then we play a blues type event where some guys on the bill come out of nowhere to ROCK like Ballistic Blues and Vince Connell.
Some of those bands I discovered a decade or more ago, some this year and there have been some joys in between too...

Edit: I lived in NY and Japan for a couple of years respectively and the hit and miss ratio was about the same as SA for blind gigs.

Averatu

@Majestic: Your point about the quality of music is a fair one. In a way I feel the same, there are some good metal bands around, but they 'sound like'. I don’t feel its really the artists fault, its a result of the way the local record industry has worked for decades. International record companies have always had an 'Artist Development' division, which would take on groups with potential and mould them to a marketable product. In SA, there was no such thing to speak of for many many years. In fact, record companies would push international acts, it much less work and the same pay-offs. The effect was musos where left to their own device, and still are. This has left our industry rather stunted. Rammstein, U2 and Coldplay all had hundreds of thousands of dollars spent on developing their act/product etc.

To all you guys who say, 'oh well, stop moaning and deal with it, that’s the way it is:
I'll draw on what I know best, Heavy Metal. I recently watched a documentary about At the Gates. Part of it was the vocalist 'Tompa', doing a bus tour of the area where they lived, at each stop he'd show a landmark in the development of the band. And every time he'd relate to another Swedish band I'd know of, with pictures of them hanging out together, gigging together, and then interview with other bands about how they would visit each other in different parts of the country and do gigs.
This only confirmed what I had suspected all along. The Swedish metal explosion was no accident. Those guys climbed in, and by working together built a massive scene which is still vibrant today.
Anyone familiar with Swedish metal will know the list of bands that came from that scene is massive. The population of Sweden is about 9.5 million.

Jack-Flash-Jr

Averatu wrote @Majestic: Your point about the quality of music is a fair one. In a way I feel the same, there are some good metal bands around, but they 'sound like'. I don’t feel its really the artists fault, its a result of the way the local record industry has worked for decades. International record companies have always had an 'Artist Development' division, which would take on groups with potential and mould them to a marketable product. In SA, there was no such thing to speak of for many many years. In fact, record companies would push international acts, it much less work and the same pay-offs. The effect was musos where left to their own device, and still are. This has left our industry rather stunted. Rammstein, U2 and Coldplay all had hundreds of thousands of dollars spent on developing their act/product etc.

To all you guys who say, 'oh well, stop moaning and deal with it, that’s the way it is:
I'll draw on what I know best, Heavy Metal. I recently watched a documentary about At the Gates. Part of it was the vocalist 'Tompa', doing a bus tour of the area where they lived, at each stop he'd show a landmark in the development of the band. And every time he'd relate to another Swedish band I'd know of, with pictures of them hanging out together, gigging together, and then interview with other bands about how they would visit each other in different parts of the country and do gigs.
This only confirmed what I had suspected all along. The Swedish metal explosion was no accident. Those guys climbed in, and by working together built a massive scene which is still vibrant today.
Anyone familiar with Swedish metal will know the list of bands that came from that scene is massive. The population of Sweden is about 9.5 million.

The afro-pop and kwaito scene is huge here and the artists collaborate to keep building it. The Akrikaans treffer scene works pretty much the same (I think, don't much about it) but they do package tours etc.
So the remaining 1.8 million... most "don't listen to music" except for the radio, the rest are divided into dance, then pop, then rock I suppose. You're looking at the same few thousand people per city having to support a scene and I think they do ok for the numbers.

Averatu

Jack Flash Jr wrote
Averatu wrote @Majestic: Your point about the quality of music is a fair one. In a way I feel the same, there are some good metal bands around, but they 'sound like'. I don’t feel its really the artists fault, its a result of the way the local record industry has worked for decades. International record companies have always had an 'Artist Development' division, which would take on groups with potential and mould them to a marketable product. In SA, there was no such thing to speak of for many many years. In fact, record companies would push international acts, it much less work and the same pay-offs. The effect was musos where left to their own device, and still are. This has left our industry rather stunted. Rammstein, U2 and Coldplay all had hundreds of thousands of dollars spent on developing their act/product etc.

To all you guys who say, 'oh well, stop moaning and deal with it, that’s the way it is:
I'll draw on what I know best, Heavy Metal. I recently watched a documentary about At the Gates. Part of it was the vocalist 'Tompa', doing a bus tour of the area where they lived, at each stop he'd show a landmark in the development of the band. And every time he'd relate to another Swedish band I'd know of, with pictures of them hanging out together, gigging together, and then interview with other bands about how they would visit each other in different parts of the country and do gigs.
This only confirmed what I had suspected all along. The Swedish metal explosion was no accident. Those guys climbed in, and by working together built a massive scene which is still vibrant today.
Anyone familiar with Swedish metal will know the list of bands that came from that scene is massive. The population of Sweden is about 9.5 million.

The afro-pop and kwaito scene is huge here and the artists collaborate to keep building it. The Akrikaans treffer scene works pretty much the same (I think, don't much about it) but they do package tours etc.
So the remaining 1.8 million... most "don't listen to music" except for the radio, the rest are divided into dance, then pop, then rock I suppose. You're looking at the same few thousand people per city having to support a scene and I think they do ok for the numbers.

Having worked for some of the afro pop kwaito artists in a non musical field, I can tell you they have their knives out for each other. The cooperation is on business/marketing level, not inter personal.

Jack-Flash-Jr

Averatu wrote Having worked for some of the afro pop kwaito artists in a non musical field, I can tell you they have their knives out for each other. The cooperation is on business/marketing level, not inter personal.

For sure.

Keira-WitherKay

Averatu wrote
Keira WitherKay wrote almost tempted into a rant on the local scene .......but rather not ?
The can of worms is already open.
Spoon?

? mmmmm i doubt you really want to hear the 'real truth" of how back stabbing and self serving the music biz or in fact any art scene is, be it here in sunny South Africa or anywhere else i have performed in the world ........ it may shock you to what extent artists even at local level "jockey" for gigs and raising their profile....... the amount of mud slinging and back stabbing that goes on is NOT isolated but the norm....

we joke about "Q ; " how many guitarists it takes to change a lightbulb? "............. A: "10 ... 1 to actually change the lightbulb and the other 9 to say how they could have done it so much better themselves" ....many a very true word spoken in jest

so rather than write a whole page's rant lets just cut to the "nitty gritty" and say don't expect too much of a helping hand unless you paying for it .......... this is a tough cut throat bussiness........ and often just getting the local gig requires stepping on someone in the process....or someone stepping on you .... but it's the same world wide........ so no big shockers there

and theres no room for mediocricy in the music biz ... if you arn't something "special" or different and unique in some ways as a performer/artist that make you or your band stick out from the crowd you will have a hard time surviving as an artist/performer in such a small over saturated market like South Africa ...........

and yes of course it is a risk being "unique" or having a unique act ( ask me i have a very unique show... ?...... but it opens up more doors than it closes ...... so the upside is if people actually like what you do however "off centre" or "unique" in some way .... being that "unique act" allows you to not have to fight the entire herd for recognition ...which leads to steady work. so find your "own individual voice as an artist/performer/band " and you will never regret it and it will translate into gigs/work

and the other side of the coin is DON'T expect everyone to love your act/performance... in show biz "one man/womans meat is often anothers poison" so find your niche market and stick to it ........

however on the brighter side .......like in all cases there are exceptions , a few kind hearted helpful, selfless souls are out there in the biz ......but are few and far between ....... and feel blessed if you have the pleasure of interacting with them along the way

Averatu

Keira WitherKay wrote
Averatu wrote
Keira WitherKay wrote almost tempted into a rant on the local scene .......but rather not ?
The can of worms is already open.
Spoon?

? mmmmm i doubt you really want to hear the 'real truth" of how back stabbing and self serving the music biz or in fact any art scene is, be it here in sunny South Africa or anywhere else i have performed in the world ........ it may shock you to what extent artists even at local level "jockey" for gigs and raising their profile....... the amount of mud slinging and back stabbing that goes on is NOT isolated but the norm....

we joke about "Q ; " how many guitarists it takes to change a lightbulb? "............. A: "10 ... 1 to actually change the lightbulb and the other 9 to say how they could have done it so much better themselves" ....many a very true word spoken in jest

so rather than write a whole page's rant lets just cut to the "nitty gritty" and say don't expect too much of a helping hand unless you paying for it .......... this is a tough cut throat bussiness........ and often just getting the local gig requires stepping on someone in the process....or someone stepping on you .... but it's the same world wide........ so no big shockers there

and theres no room for mediocricy in the music biz ... if you arn't something "special" or different and unique in some ways as a performer/artist that make you or your band stick out from the crowd you will have a hard time surviving as an artist/performer in such a small over saturated market like South Africa ...........

and yes of course it is a risk being "unique" or having a unique act ( ask me i have a very unique show... ?...... but it opens up more doors than it closes ...... so the upside is if people actually like what you do however "off centre" or "unique" in some way .... being that "unique act" allows you to not have to fight the entire herd for recognition ...which leads to steady work. so find your "own individual voice as an artist/performer/band " and you will never regret it and it will translate into gigs/work

and the other side of the coin is DON'T expect everyone to love your act/performance... in show biz "one man/womans meat is often anothers poison" so find your niche market and stick to it ........

however on the brighter side .......like in all cases there are exceptions , a few kind hearted helpful, selfless souls are out there in the biz ......but are few and far between ....... and feel blessed if you have the pleasure of interacting with them along the way

majestikc

Keira WitherKay wrote
Averatu wrote
Keira WitherKay wrote almost tempted into a rant on the local scene .......but rather not ?
The can of worms is already open.
Spoon?

and theres no room for mediocricy in the music biz ... if you arn't something "special" or different and unique in some ways as a performer/artist that make you or your band stick out from the crowd you will have a hard time surviving as an artist/performer in such a small over saturated market like South Africa ...........

Amen to that.

Supply and demand.

There's a lot more bands overseas [steve] vying for gig's and fame and fortune. We actually have it good in this country, WHEN something good and unique does come along (with MAYBE....just maybe, decent live sound) then there wont be much competition for it plus all the "punters" who are desperate for something decent will just lap it up big time.

majestikc

I'm glad you raised that point. I'm getting a bit bored seing bands just rehash what an international band has done. A local metal act has gone so far as to wear similar costumes and adopting the same mannerisms, the same crowd interaction methods, and the promo photos may as well have been of the international act they are mimicking. But they wont stop because everyone around them is backslapping them, telling them how great they are, instead of being honest. The one act I did enjoy has moved to the states.
[/quote]

Might you be referring to Ridare Av Koden, aka: Children of Bodom wanna-bee

I believe not only does the singer wear the same type of camo pants as Alexi Laiho, but they are in fact Alexi Laiho's signature brand of camo pant's. Not to mention the Alexi Laiho guitar and blatantly obvious Children of Bodom music rippof to a point where you can actually point out exactly what C o B song they're trying to con.

I really think there's so much bad mouthing around bands here (and everywhere) because in general, it's deserved.

I'll be the first to point out how crappy a band is, but I'll also be the first to give praise where it's due.

Honesty is the best policy, burying our "proudly south african" heads in the sand, pretending everything is "fine and dandy" isn't helping anyone or anything.

Is something is shit SAY SO so that hopefully something can be done about it.

Averatu

majestikc wrote I'm glad you raised that point. I'm getting a bit bored seing bands just rehash what an international band has done. A local metal act has gone so far as to wear similar costumes and adopting the same mannerisms, the same crowd interaction methods, and the promo photos may as well have been of the international act they are mimicking. But they wont stop because everyone around them is backslapping them, telling them how great they are, instead of being honest. The one act I did enjoy has moved to the states.

Might you be referring to Ridare Av Koden, aka: Children of Bodom wanna-bee

I believe not only does the singer wear the same type of camo pants as Alexi Laiho, but they are in fact Alexi Laiho's signature brand of camo pant's. Not to mention the Alexi Laiho guitar and blatantly obvious Children of Bodom music rippof to a point where you can actually point out exactly what C o B song they're trying to con.

I really think there's so much bad mouthing around bands here (and everywhere) because in general, it's deserved.

I'll be the first to point out how crappy a band is, but I'll also be the first to give praise where it's due.

Honesty is the best policy, burying our "proudly south african" heads in the sand, pretending everything is "fine and dandy" isn't helping anyone or anything.

Is something is shit SAY SO so that hopefully something can be done about it.
[/quote]
Last time I saw them was when they where supposed to open for Ensiferum, but they 'EMO RAGE QUIT' halfway thru the second song. The cover of the Wakka Wakka also did not help. In a word, LAME.

majestikc

Yes, I heard about that, I heard they screwed up there own song and couldn't recover so they just stopped.

I also heard that when Ensiferum played the place was packed and it sounded amazing on the same p.a setup, and the level of musicianship was top notch and then when the S.A bands played everyone went outside and wasn't interested and the sound turned back into rubbish and the sloppiness resumed. I wish I was there, but at the same time I don't.

I guessed wrong about the copy-cat band, it's pretty sad that there are so many, making it difficult to pick the right one.

I think within the metal genre in this country it's probably the worst, and I'm talking about the general musicianship and complete lack of originality. The other genres have some quite decent stuff.

I saw a Dirty Skirts video on MK the other day and thought it was some good overseas band, the music, production and video where all on that level.

Was fooled by Love Jones as well when I first saw it, thought it was some good British band.

Taxi Violence as well, although they're not as good as when they first came out.

But the S.A metal scene is just garbage, I have nothing good to say about it unfortunately.

Averatu

majestikc wrote Yes, I heard about that, I heard they screwed up there own song and couldn't recover so they just stopped.

I also heard that when Ensiferum played the place was packed and it sounded amazing on the same p.a setup, and the level of musicianship was top notch and then when the S.A bands played everyone went outside and wasn't interested and the sound turned back into rubbish and the sloppiness resumed. I wish I was there, but at the same time I don't.

Pretty much.

Dingwall

I watched Pearl Jam '20' the other day and what they were saying about the Seattle scene in the late 80s was that most bands and musos knew eachother and actually supported and encouraged eachother, which was unusual and had not really been seen before in other cities with key music scenes(New York, L.A etc). And a lot of bands worked together on collaborations and switched musos, lived together (Vedder and Cornell!) etc etc.

Now was this by choice or did it just coincide with the overall movement and what the young people were feeling and what they wanted to say blah blah. I have not been there myself but a friend went to Seattle in the 90s and said that there was nothing remarkable about the place at all, rather boring he said! It's seems that music put it on the map.

Yes there was some animosity between Pearl Jam & Nirvana but this was when they became super big and it seems like the exception!

But this is all in an 'orginal' band context. Covers and other genre's I guess are different.

There has been a lot of press in UK recently about "is guitar music dead" in the mainstream context and it seems like the consensus is that there are still tons of guitar bands but none really saying anything new and a lot of mediocrity.

So I kind of agree with Averatu in this context iro South African music. Come on guys time to pull together or find the substance to put South Africa on some kind of musical map! Why not?! Especially in this small world age. Hey Iceland has a population of 320,000 and they have produced some really good stuf!!

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