psyx wrote: Lately I have been looking alot at different amp and pedal combos and the conclusion I have made is that if you buy a good tube amp with a generic sound (Not a trademark sound like a Vox AC30 for instance) for R5k -10k and slap the right pedals on it you can get almost any sound you want from it...
Am I wrong in saying this?

I would say you can get a fair approximation of 'any sound' but, the real thing is the real thing and a pedal cannot reproduce it easily.

I don't agree with the practice of using a clean valve amp + drive pedals but I do see the point of it and it works for a lot of people.

ez wrote:

psyx wrote: Lately I have been looking alot at different amp and pedal combos and the conclusion I have made is that if you buy a good tube amp with a generic sound (Not a trademark sound like a Vox AC30 for instance) for R5k -10k and slap the right pedals on it you can get almost any sound you want from it...
Am I wrong in saying this?

I would say you can get a fair approximation of 'any sound' but, the real thing is the real thing and a pedal cannot reproduce it easily.

I don't agree with the practice of using a clean valve amp + drive pedals but I do see the point of it and it works for a lot of people.

I could be wrong, but IMHO you lose the advantages in tone of a valve amp when you start using transistor pedals. I don't use any pedals whatsoever, and I get any sound I could want from my Peavey...

I don't know man, pedals through a valve amp just sound so rich.

Reinhard wrote: I don't know man, pedals through a valve amp just sound so rich.

Yes, my issue with the practice is not the sound itself. Mostly pedals + valve amp sounds pretty good. My issue with bands that use this method is that their 'quiet' and 'loud' passages are mostly at the same volume i.e. there's little dynamics in playing, your clean sound should be at this volume , overdrive at this volume and your rawk sound at this volume. Otherwise it sounds bit unlively. Of course you need a drummer that understands this as well.

And drive pedals through a tube amp do sound very rich. However, a driving tube amp sounds richer still. If you can find a way to get natural drive from the amp, it always sounds better to my ears than the best over-drive pedals.

And fuzz pedals only really come alive when the amp is driving. They sound fairly lifeless on a clean tube amp - or with a drive pedal.

Some examples of dynamics in songs

=


=


quiet and loud being used to good effect. Classical musicians understands this, this is why orchestras sounds so HUGE without the help if amplifiers and drive pedals.

Of course, I have to add, that this certainly is possible when using pedals with a clean valve amp, but most people don't, clean and drive at the same volume. This is why I advocate driven valve amps (not amps with gain knobs, they don't clean up), by turning the guitar volume down you lose volume and the sound cleans up. The dynamics are built into the technique, plus you get the added bonus of getting some drive when picking harder. So my problem with pedals isn't really the pedals, its the way they are used. I also think volume pedals are an evil evil invention that must die, because they are used improperly almost invariably.

You can get the pedal pushing the amp a bit and that does give you a little more oomph. With a nice pedal, it also responds to guitar volume, I tend to roll the volume up going through the Hellbender and you get a very amp like response, and obviously you are cutting better as well. In a perfect world I'd crank a halfstack ?

I have to agree with the guys here. You can get close to the real tone, but nothing beats a tube amp due to the fact that it's touch sensitive, responsive and usually just have great dynamics. I only really found this out now recently after I finished my Soldano SLO100 clone... and as Reinhard said you can get the pedal to just push the amp a bit. So pushing the amp to that drooling break up point before completely distorting is ampsolutly ? awesome, then to just push it over for that sweet distortion or drive (makes me tear up from awesomeness) is where a pedal should be used or if you just ant to add some flavor to your drive. Although having a drive pedal that is quite responsive and dynamic is always an added bonus.

using one amp and various different pedals sure is cheaper than having different amps. Especially if you play different styles...

psyx wrote: using one amp and various different pedals sure is cheaper than having different amps. Especially if you play different styles...

Yes, that's why I don't dismiss drive pedals completely. A cranked amp is going to give you that awesome one tone but no others, pedals can give you more flavours to work with, if you're into that. Me? I love that one flavour so much that I don't feel the need for others.


@Nicholas, HTF do you crank a 100 watt? The mind boggles...

very true it sure is cheaper.... I usually go and jam out with my line 6 POD X3 completely programmed how i want all the patches to be so switching would be easier, but if you are using stomp boxes then its usually just nice to know you can do a wide variety with the same pedal ie. guitar volume or picking dynamic changes.... but as you pointed out lugging around one amp and a couple of pedals (especially on a pedal board) is a lot easier than multiple amps ? and if it works for you then do it ?

@ EZ...

I haven't cranked this amp yet lol.... I would blow my ears off and the ears of the next generation and my roof would probably cave in and some people might be super pissed at me. I cranked a 100W'r while i visited a store in the UK which had some sound booth's to crank an amp in (I wasn't sitting in side that booth :'( although I kind of wish i was.) maybe someday I'll get the opportunity to crank it or i should build an attenuator I guess.

EZ's theorem can simply be stated as following:


18 watt + VVR = Cranked-amp-whenever-I-want-bliss


?

That's on the list to do ? 8) eventually

Ez I know you built a VVR into your amp - do you know if there is a similar DIY unit that can be used externally, ie between the amp and speaker to do a similar thing. I know there are attenuators such as Graeme's Tube Tamer, but thats out of my reach. I would build an H or L resistive bridge, but I've heard the tonal losses there are quite big..

I've got a document by gerald weber from kendrick amps that is about a resistive attenuator and he says in there that tonal loss only really becomes very transparent once you go over -12db. How true it is I don't know as I haven't tried it yet.

here's a link http://www.google.co.za/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=2%20stage%20attenuator&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CC8QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hearditontheweb.com%2Fimages%2Fpdf%2Fattenuator.pdf&ei=kV3fTrCRAcKFhQelxZGRBQ&usg=AFQjCNEJAlBdGBpEpkMEheCQSFUYQR6mag&sig2=BO4HOxTAhTenZIJGbKqJ-w&cad=rja

this one is made for -6db then -12db, but it's easy enough to make it -3, -6, -9, -12....

It's possible to build an L-Pad with some inductors that have way less tone loss.. But IMO the only real way to attenuate transparently is with a VVR.

MikeM wrote: It's possible to build an L-Pad with some inductors that have way less tone loss.. But IMO the only real way to attenuate transparently is with a VVR.

Yes I agree. VVR isn't perfect, taking the amp WAY down in volume lowers the voltages too much and it browns out. I think the best option, for home playing or lower volume recording, would be to use some slight attenuation (6dB or so) and some VVR in the amp. That way you are not stressing either method and you can minimise the amount the tone changes. For gigging a 30 watt or smaller amp, any one of these will work just fine, but if you want even lower volume you'll need to make extra plans or live with the tone change.

Edit:

Also, some amplifier designs lend themselves for better VVR performance. My friend built a 22 watt marshallesque amp with fixed bias and the VVR on that sucks the tone badly when you try to lower the VVR beyond halfway. That practically makes that amp a gig amp only, the cathode biased designs seems to work a lot better with VVR. That may well be because the VVR in his is not well thought-out but I'm not sure. The power scaling in the new 65 Amps amps looks like it works very well even though the amps are fixed bias (I think they are).