An Apology

singemonkey

I thought I'd apologise for a thread I posted a while back. Initially I was puzzled by the offence taken. But I see it now.

There's a kind of humour called, "black humour." It relies on knowing that the subject of the joke is offensive to many people. It wouldn't otherwise be funny.

As such, it must be contained within a group that you know for certain your true feelings on the matter - it cannot be for general consumption. I don't mean to say that some won't get it. It takes a known understanding between people before you can, for example, make jokes about Nazis etc.. The trick is that within a group who know one another, everyone knows that everyone else is anti-nazi, so a joke about nazis is taken as black humour. If you don't know that, you may think that the person responsible is promoting Nazism. And it would be totally justified to think so.

On a public forum like this - where we know one another only slightly - such humour will only cause offence. I see that clearly. So I wanted to apologise for my oversight, and any offence caused.

Bob-Dubery

R.E.S.P.E.C.T

It takes a big person to make an unforced apology.

Hammeron

X-rated Bob wrote: R.E.S.P.E.C.T

It takes a big person to make an unforced apology.

Yep....and they don't come bigger than Singe.

Sean

Cool ?

stu

Where is the thread. I want to read it!!

This must have been bugging you some much you couldn't sleep. Posting at 02:06 in the morning. Ive been there too dude.

singemonkey

I'd been gigging. 8)

Was still awake.

IceCreamMan

REally no need to. Its humour , black as coal but intention is still that and nothing more.

Wizard

singemonkey wrote: I'd been gigging. 8)
Was still awake.

I saw him gigging.
He is really good !!

AlanRatcliffe

Hats off to you Singe...

Interestingly, after the (somewhat premature) deletion of the thread in question, the mods and I had a discussion where it was decided that we wouldn't start clamping down on things like black humour or strong language, but rather continue allowing members to self moderate these areas for themselves and between each other.

This does not mean that the forum will become an "anything goes" area, but this will rather allow the members to discuss and settle between themselves on what is acceptable for our community and what is not. This way, the limits should be able to adjust and change as social mores do, without interference from us or our own concepts of morality (or the lack therof in some cases ?). Also, rest assured that we can and will step in to reign in any continually troublesome individuals.

So Singemonkey, your decision to apologise now confirms that we made the correct decision (and that there is hope for us all after all ?).

Keira-WitherKay

Alan Ratcliffe wrote: Hats off to you Singe...

Interestingly, after the (somewhat premature) deletion of the thread in question, the mods and I had a discussion where it was decided that we wouldn't start clamping down on things like black humour or strong language, but rather continue allowing members to self moderate these areas for themselves and between each other.

This does not mean that the forum will become an "anything goes" area, but this will rather allow the members to discuss and settle between themselves on what is acceptable for our community and what is not. This way, the limits should be able to adjust and change as social mores do, without interference from us or our own concepts of morality (or the lack therof in some cases ?). Also, rest assured that we can and will step in to reign in any continually troublesome individuals.

So Singemonkey, your decision to apologise now confirms that we made the correct decision (and that there is hope for us all after all ?).

well let me start by saying if this is because of that "humour" over the "guitarists and child molestation " thread, i applaud singemonkey for his apology , thank you ,

but as an argument to what alan wrote ( this is not a reponse for singemonkey but towards alan and the mods re his statement on the issue)

and i appologise for tagging this in the same post as singemonkeys appology but just bringing this up because alan posted that statement from him and the mods........... and i did think it needed a responce

child molestation/rape/nazi'ism/racism/discrimination may seem funny to some ......(normally those never personally or through a loved one affected by any of these actions) .... but one should never forget there are some of us who exerienced some of these incidents, and they are NOT ever " funny" to the victims of such actions...........

and you welcome to disagree,

but topics like child molestation / rape and abuse/ and jewish concentration camp humour and racism should be avoided.....

we have rules on the forum banning politics and religeon( for good reason) these should be added..........

having been active as a human rights activist and having my fathers mothers side of the family being jewish and met family who lost relatives in the camps .......... i have spent enough time around people who have been affected by these actions and i too have experienced discrimination so know how it feels ......and i have yet to hear anyone who has experienced child molestation/rape/or nazi'ism to ever laugh at a joke about it ......

in fact the result is the opposite and makes me and these people feel that the so called "joke" or "black humour" is actually an endorsement of the offensive action .

and even if the person making the joke will NEVER actually do anything of this nature themselves to anyone, or personally intend the "joke" to do harm , the mere fact that it's laughed about and not taken seriously , trivialises the issues , that someone else may end up committing these offenses because of this trivialisation , with devastating results to the victims

racman

I agree with both Keira and Zohn on this. The problem with dark humour is that very often it is only humour to the writer but insulting to the reader.

Alan, maybe I misunderstood your brief explanation but will the forum rules also be modified so we can get clarity on what is allowed and what is not, or will the application of these merely be more flexible and reliant on members to deal with?

I also don't think that "Singe's" apology must be seen as an indication that this will be the norm in future (respect for that apology Singe). .

In my experience it is more common for the offended to remain silent and/or move on and the offenders to revel in the shock value and impact of their comments. So those who are prepared to self moderate will as always do so before posting, and those that don't will have free reign?

AlanRatcliffe

There are rules covering hate speech, bigotry and the like. We have never really moderated language, that has always been the forum self moderating - and it has worked well. I am merely saying that this should extend to other areas not specifically covered by the rules. Nothing has really changed.

I don't believe that we as mods be required to enforce anyone else's standards of morality. We also have members who are vociferous in their defence of free speech and who rail against any kind of censorship (also understandable given this country's history and the particular impact it had on many in the music community) and we end up caught between the two. Also understand that this does not mean that everyone will suddenly start swearing like sailors and posting sick jokes - I think you know our members well enough to know that is highly unlikely. Have some faith in your fellow forum members.

Also note that deferring moderation of such things to us means that you are deferring to our sense of morality and asking us to impose it on other members - including yourselves. Trust me, I know some of you would not want that.

So, If you find a piece of black humour or a particularly ripe word offensive, PM the member in question, explain why you find it offensive and ask them to please edit their post. If your principles are strongly held, surely you are willing to stand up for them rather than abdicate that responsibility to others? (Although, please note that this does not give anyone the right to harass or cyberstalk another because of a slightly different take on what is acceptable.)

Interestingly enough, no-one even reported the thread in question in the time it stood (which was about a week IINM?), which implies that no-one wanted it moderated in the first place, but preferred to voice their objections publicly.

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Evelyn Beatrice Hall

singemonkey

As I said, Keira, it's in the nature of this sort of humour to be funny because it's taboo. Because of this, one must either be prepared to seriously offend people - as many stand up comedians do - or reserve it for a group of people who know that the the taboo-breaking is the joke, and that the joker does is not actually unsympathetic to the situation being joked about. That's key. The humour is the fine line that separates the joke from a genuine attitude of denial of a serious issue.

This is clearly not a form of humour to everyone's taste. What I realised is, just like I wouldn't make those kinds of jokes at say, a cousin's wedding, I shouldn't make them here. I'm quite capable, for example, of making jokes about Nazism with my close friends, while despising with intense passion any hint of fascism in real life - as do they. That, in a sense, is why we derive humour from it. The take home message here is: it's not for everybody. This forum, on the other hand, must be.

@Wizard. Thanks.

Bob-Dubery

I've split this thread into two. What are you reading here has stayed on the site feedback board. The split off portion will shortly be moved to the off-topic board and unlocked.

You can still post here, but please keep further postings appropriate to the board.