There are two guitarists who love being loud

Even though this is the dream jam room, it's rather small. 4,5m by 2,5m

There are your problems right there. If you want to record everyone in the same room at once, you have to either have a big room and lots of iso screens (and guitarists will still have to tame the volume a lot) or DI absolutely everything but for the vocals.

Also bear in mind that everyone will have to monitor with headphones, so if you want everyone to record at once, you will need a headphone distribution system.

In a smaller room, each and every mic is going to pick up all the other instruments (especially louder ones like drums and guitar amps) and you will have very little separation between tracks. So your recording quality will always be compromised in a single-take recording. The standard way to approach this is to isolate the drums as much as possible so that the drum mics hear very little of the other instruments and record everything at once. Then you go back and re-record all the other instruments one-by-one to get the isolation (but using the original recording of everything but the drums as scratch tracks). If you're serious about it, you can also replace the drum sounds using Drumagog, which will get you perfect isolation and separation on the drums too, but keep the feel of the original performance. The nice thing about this approach is you can use whatever mics are left over for the scratch tracks and then use the best mics when you re-record.

Otherwise the DI approach can work for single take recording (I use this one myself), but it means electronic drums and DI-ing the guitars and bass. Obviously it also has huge advantages for practicing at sane volume levels. When recording you still need to iso the vocalists as much as possible (the only ones with live mics). It's then also still possible to re-record each part (and use your favourite drum sample library for the drums). It also means only recording a stereo pair and the MIDI output for the drums, which frees up a lot of valuable inputs.

Mic-wise, stick with SM57s for amps, snare and toms (yes, you can improve on them, but only at a price and usually with a more single-purpose mic). For overheads, I prefer small diaphragm condensors (Oktava MK-012s, Shure KSM141s, Rode NT-5s or Audio Technica AT4047s) - these can also double for your acoustic guitar mics. Kick and bass amp, the Beta 52s are a nice "pre-EQ'd" mic for live (especially for more modern rock/pop stuff), but the AKG D112 is still king - a bit more flexible if you don't mind fiddling. While SM58s are the best vocal mics for live, I far prefer having a large diaphragm condenser for vocals.

The mixer isn't actually too serious as long as it has decent mic pre's and inserts to go to the interface. Forget USB or firewire - from ten channels up, you need to work with buss-powered cards and breakout boxes/racks to get decent throughput.

Alan Ratcliffe wrote: In a smaller room, each and every mic is going to pick up all the other instruments

The more I play around with the idea and the thought of it actually materializing, the further away I go from the idea of a actual live multitrack recording so that isn't a huge issue any more. I do, however, want to be able to connect all the mics I would need to one mixer/interface so that I don't have to disconnect and reconnect items between tracks.

Alan Ratcliffe wrote: Otherwise the DI approach can work for single take recording (I use this one myself)

Alan Ratcliffe wrote: Kick and bass amp, the Beta 52s are a nice "pre-EQ'd" mic for live (especially for more modern rock/pop stuff), but the AKG D112 is still king - a bit more flexible if you don't mind fiddling.

I've read that many people prefer running the Bass through a DI and not a mic or using both a DI and a mic and blending them to get a fuller sound. Would you recommend a specific one of these techniques?

Alan Ratcliffe wrote: The mixer isn't actually too serious as long as it has decent mic pre's and inserts to go to the interface. Forget USB or firewire - from ten channels up, you need to work with buss-powered cards and breakout boxes/racks to get decent throughput.

Sorry but could you please explain this to me, my lack of knowledge is killing me. Would you be able to record each track independently and mix later on? I want to do this for two reasons:
Firstly, the people making the music will be the ones mixing and editing as well
Secondly, it gives us more flexibility so that we can adjust as we go along. It's quite frightening to know that all your drum mics for instance will be recorded to one track and there's nothing you can do to change your snare sound at a later stage.

I also have another issue (or enquiry rather). Say, for instance, you had to draw up a giant list of the equipment you want (and obviously obtain the capital for it all), would it be better to go to one shop, ask them to source out the products they don't have and maybe make some changes if needed in hope of getting a big chunk of discount, or would it be better to go to shops that have the best prices for the individual items you're looking for?

D-Man wrote: I do, however, want to be able to connect all the mics I would need to one mixer/interface so that I don't have to disconnect and reconnect items between tracks.

You're going to end up doing that anyway - swapping out mics for different tasks. A decent patchbay helps minimise the effort. If you don't need to capture all the instruments at once, you can get away with a four or eight bus desk and a soundcard with four or eight inputs, which is far more manageable and affordable.

I've read that many people prefer running the Bass through a DI and not a mic or using both a DI and a mic and blending them to get a fuller sound.

Yeah - DI-ing is my default and I'll use an amp modelling software (usually IK Multimedia Ampeg SVX or Guitar Rig) to simulate a real amp. If I'm recording a player with a really nice amp then I'll both DI and mic up.

Sorry but could you please explain this to me, my lack of knowledge is killing me.

Most of the better multichannel audio interfaces have a card that plugs into a PCI/PCIe slot into your computer and then connect to an external "box" with all the sockets on via a fat multicore (or ADAT) cable. Faster data throughput (connected directly to your PCs motherboard) and lower latency than any external interface (USB or Firewire). IMO, Firewire is dying anyway...

Would you be able to record each track independently and mix later on?

Yes. As long as you have enough mic and soundcard inputs to cover your most intensive task (usually live drums). Usually you have each soundcard input set up with it's own buss, then you just assign the mic channels you need to the buss and switch them out when you don't need them. I rarely use more than two inputs on the soundcard (out of ten) and as I do all my mixing on the PC, I only use a single stereo pair of outputs for monitoring. If you are using electronic drums (or triggers), you won't even need to record the drum audio, just the MIDI - everything else is done "in the box".

It's quite frightening to know that all your drum mics for instance will be recorded to one track and there's nothing you can do to change your snare sound at a later stage.

In one respect that is good - it teaches you to get things right before you start tracking. You learn mic techniques and about phase relationships. A good engineer can get a good sound from four mics or twelve (and it gets harder the more mics you have). Hell, I started on a four track tape machine, and even training on a 16-track machine, there were times you had to premix some things together or have more than one instrument on a track. Anyway, even if you mix everything else into a stereo pair, you always keep your snare and kick separate.

would it be better to go to one shop, ask them to source out the products they don't have and maybe make some changes if needed in hope of getting a big chunk of discount, or would it be better to go to shops that have the best prices for the individual items you're looking for?

If you have a precise list of exactly what you want, then get quotes listing the price of each item from each store and then pick and choose from each. If they see there is a potential for you to buy a whack of gear, they will work out the best prices (but be warned - margins aren't the same on a lot of recording gear). Don't forget to include cabling - it can add up to a lot of money. So can software.

BTW - If this all sounds like greek, then you should first spend money on a recording engineering course before you spend it on equipment, otherwise you will make many expensive mistakes buying everything at once.

Alan Ratcliffe wrote:

There are two guitarists who love being loud

Even though this is the dream jam room, it's rather small. 4,5m by 2,5m

There are your problems right there. If you want to record everyone in the same room at once, you have to either have a big room and lots of iso screens (and guitarists will still have to tame the volume a lot) or DI absolutely everything but for the vocals.

Isn't there another option though? I recall that Zappa used to tape a lot of live shows and either release them as live albums or use parts of the recording as a basis for new tracks.

His practice was to mike everything really closely so as to minimise bleed (or to have the instrument signal significantly louder than the bleed) and any ambient noise.

X-rated Bob wrote: Isn't there another option though? I recall that Zappa used to tape a lot of live shows and either release them as live albums or use parts of the recording as a basis for new tracks.

His practice was to mike everything really closely so as to minimise bleed (or to have the instrument signal significantly louder than the bleed) and any ambient noise.

Yup - he recorded absolutely everything. But he and his bands shouldn't really be compared to us mere mortals. He would compile the best version of a song, using different instrument tracks recorded in different venues by different versions of the band (often in different decades), and would occasionally graft a solo from one song onto another. However, the recordings still sound very much what they are - live sound, rather than studio and his results are amazing even by today's digital standards (remember he was using 8-24 track tape machines - copy & paste had a totally different meaning ?). Also he DI'd everything he possibly could (Ruth Underwood's marimba had a piezo pickup fitted to every single note).

It all depends on what you want - live recordings trade off clarity, detail and accuracy for added feel & vibe. The usual method of recording scratch tracks live and replacing each track with an overdub is the best compromise between the two.

okay, so we're not exactly at the stage of epic jam room yet. For now we just want to be able to record a video of us playing or song, in the garage, and get the sound from that. Our usual method uses either a cellphone or an HD camera to record. Even though the HD camera has very cool video recording capabilities, the sound is not great quality especially at high volumes. What would be the cheapest way to get a good sound recorded so that we can layer that over the video recording to get some good facebook videos of our practice session?

Rightn ow with my new band undertaking, we are recording practices ona little boss micro BR recorder which gets the idea of what we do.... that is simply to listen back and say what works and what does not....
For studio when we go record I have pretty much decided on, Drums and bass recorded live together.... so I get that natural groove between the two of them..... Then keys and guitars seperate.... I find when I record guitars I end up never recording a whole track at once..... I split up pretty much anywhere I turn a pedal on or off.... SO I have more flexability to mix parts... and then also there is not so much stress when recording...... Bass I am pretty set on just DI and mic..... mix the two of them.
Keys which this time around are a mixture of Piano, and Fender Rhodes piano are all a bit exciting.... I put the Rhodes into a roland jc120, or Fender Twin and crank the living life out of them, use a sm57 up close to the cone just off centre to get a nice solid sound, but then the room is rather large so I use to ambient ribbon mics around the room to get more natural reverb. Actually I record the guitar the same way.
Drums I do not like super complex setups, and I do not mic the hi hat.... it gets picked up elsewhere. 2 overheads, snare, bass, maybe 2 bass drum mics....... and floor tom

That many mics in one room going at one time? Must be a very big room with lots of isolation between the various instruments. Wedges or in ear monitors?

are you refering to my comment? or another?

MIKA the better one wrote: are you refering to my comment? or another?

The original post.