Sound Reinforcement - Band situation

clinton

Hi All

Ok...so after a 6 year break from playing in bands I find myself once again drawn to the late nights, band fights, no roadies(even less groupies) life of a amatuer(we prefer Independant) band.

So the problem....... I have used my 6 years to collect only gear that would benefit and pertain to my guitar playing (see my sig below) and have failed to purchase anything that would help me to play in a band situation.
S0....
I need a PA system to handle my vocals and to spread the sound of my mic'ed vox. Another spanner in the works is the fact that my wife (who is the drummer and effectively the only groupie I have) plays a Yamaha Dtxpress Special Electronic drumkit. So now the pa system will need to handle the massive range of an electronic kit.

So my thinking about 2 possible setup options is this (and this is where I need some help guys)
option 1:
2 x 300w powered speakers (beta 3 or wharfedale titan12) that only my guitar and all the vocals (3 vocals) will go through
then buy another system exactly the same but add a 18" powered SUB onto that system for the electronic drums and a bit of keyboard and a bit of bass guiatr(just for spread as bassist and keyboardist have own combo amps)
I like the idea of 2 seperate systems for different instruments so u are not sending all the signals through one amp and one pair of speakers. This method is supposed to help keep your sound cleaner. What do u guys think??????????

option 2:
just buy a bigger powered system with a sub and all instruments go through that.

ALSO: has any1 had any experience with BETA3 or the wharfedale Titan12's - I heard demos in the store and they both do sound great.

Anyways..... I really would appreciate any advise on PA info that u guys can give. (what do u guys use???)

Thanks
C

AlanRatcliffe

Sorry... almost missed this post somehow.

clinton wrote: Ok...so after a 6 year break from playing in bands I find myself once again drawn to the late nights, band fights, no roadies(even less groupies) life of a amatuer(we prefer Independant) band.

My sympathies. You forgot the struggle to get paid at the end of the night and the bad acoustics, faulty and dangerous wiring at venues from your list. I'm sure Riaan C will fill in anything I've missed.

I like the idea of 2 seperate systems for different instruments so u are not sending all the signals through one amp and one pair of speakers. This method is supposed to help keep your sound cleaner. What do u guys think??????????

It does keep your sound clearer, but it's actually referring to bi- and tri-amplification, not running completely discrete systems for different instruments - that is increasing your level of complication horrendously. Trust me you don't want to be trying to EQ and balance two systems with each other.

One mixing desk (to control them all), a crossover, your four powered speakers and your sub - that's the ticket. Having multiple mains mean you can spread them out in a room to fill it better without having to push all the sound from one end to another. It also means that for smaller gigs, you can leave the one pair of speakers behind.

I must say though, I don't have experience with powered cabs used in a bigger rig. I don't know if they would be suitable for that application (I've always used separate power amps and speakers).

ALSO: has any1 had any experience with BETA3 or the wharfedale Titan12's - I heard demos in the store and they both do sound great.

Sorry, no direct experience, but it's a big purchase, so ask around ...a lot. Visit as many shops that carry that type of gear as you can, tell 'em what you want to do and ask what they recommend and why they recommend it. See who sounds like they really know what they are talking about.

(what do u guys use???)

My last stage rig was a relatively small one (and very portable):
Mackie CR1604 mixer
Crown Microtech 2400 amp.
500W Celestion Saturn Satellite speakers (the Celestion guys built them for me specially)
Cerwin Vega 15" sub (can't remember the model, but it had two voice coils and took signals from both channels).

That covered most venues for us (a loudish rock band). The rare occasion that we needed more oomph, I'd hire/borrow in an extra pair of speakers to add to the system, and for the really big venues we just hired a complete rig and engineer.

Riaan-Combrink

Hi Clinton,

Although I'm also in a band with my wife (my sympathies ?), it's a two piece with one guitar and two vox; all other instruments on bactracks. So my PA is geared towards that kind of configuration, and won't assist you. This is what I use, only for interest sake:
http://synchronicity.rsa.googlepages.com/ourgear

I don't have much experience of the sound aspect in bigger bands (normally just pitch for a jam with my guitar and pedal and someone plugs me in somewhere!!), but I've forwarded this post to some buddies who play in that kind of setup and will post their advice once I get it.

Cheers

Riaan C

Gareth

Hi Clinton,
This may be a bit late and not where you want to go at all, but all the other members in the band have thier own amps (it seems) except for your vox and your wifes drums (a babe with rhythm - good catch ? ) so depending on the size of venue I would probably look into getting a keyboard amp (these tend to be nearly flat acousticly and are designed to handle the transients coming from a drum machine) for your wife.
This amp can also be used as a) a compact PA for small rehearsals/practices for your vox and b) gives her a stage monitor (backline) for when you do the bigger gigs.

Hope this helps

AlanRatcliffe

Gareth, that's a very good point. Something like a Roland KC-550 will kick ass for most venues around town and take a lot of stress off the PA for all but the biggest gig.

clinton

Thanks for the replies guys....

Alan.... Thought about your comments regarding 2 seperate systems and I think u r right... probably gonna be more of a pain to set up then anything else.
I like the idea of 4 mains plus 1 (or 2 hehehe ) subs. The reason why I like powered speakers is because some (like the Wharfedale Titan 12) are already Bi-Amped (one amp for woofer and one for horn) so this (to my mind) would immediatly give a clarity increase over a single poweramp used to drive 2 mains.
What did u guys drive through your 15" sub and what venue/crowd size could a that sub handle?

Riaan....thanks for forwarding that to ur buddies (BTW I had the exact same ibanez sz as u - sold to go towards my Fender)

Gareth....Our keyboardist is also keen to get a keyboard amp (peavey kb4 70watt). I agree that they really do handle the full frequency range of drums brilliantly but what I am worried about with a single combo KB amp is the abillity for us to spread the sound evenly around a room. Do you guys think this would be a problem. I think the biggest gigs we will get will be wedding venues and about 200 people.

Thanks again guys
Clint

Gareth

clinton wrote:
Gareth....Our keyboardist is also keen to get a keyboard amp (peavey kb4 70watt). I agree that they really do handle the full frequency range of drums brilliantly but what I am worried about with a single combo KB amp is the abillity for us to spread the sound evenly around a room. Do you guys think this would be a problem. I think the biggest gigs we will get will be wedding venues and about 200 people.

I'm probably the wrong guy to answer this as I see 1 instrument, therefore I think in mono, then move that around in the stereo field if needs be, but to answer your question, the amp should have a DI out so that you can put some signal through the main PA as icing ... if you really need to .... or put the keyboard/keyboard amp on one side and the drum/keyboard amp on the other side of the stage and split the signal L/R with the keyboard player ....

HTH

AlanRatcliffe

What did u guys drive through your 15" sub and what venue/crowd size could a that sub handle?

All driving off the same Crown Microtech and speakers with built in passive crossovers. The crossover frequencies of the speakers made sure that the amp was still seeing a 4 Ohm load (anyway, the Crown's are comfortable down to 2 Ohm).

That could handle rooms of up to 200 people at a kick-ass volume and up to 500 people with moderate volume. While I was playing a loud acoustic kit and the bassist had a Peavey TNT, we would always put a lot of kick and snare/hat mic and a little of a single overhead mic (dynamic, so it didn't get too much cymbal in comparison to toms) as well as a lineout from bass through the PA just to get the coverage. If we needed more, we'd get Kevin Winder in with a bigger rig and single mic the toms too.

what I am worried about with a single combo KB amp is the abillity for us to spread the sound evenly around a room.

It doesn't take as much as you think - it's mostly the higher frequency stuff that you have problems with dispersion (also depending on the room), and often you just need a touch of kit and bass through the PA to give the impression that it's filling up the room. Use your subs properly - make sure they are on the floor and preferably in a corner too, and you will find you need a lot less power to give the impression that you are really pumping the volume.

I think the biggest problem with smaller sound setups that I've heard around town is that guys are using 2 way speakers with 15" bass drivers and piezo tweeters as mains, which is a combo that almost always leaves a hole in the frequency response right in the vocal sensitive midrange (unless the cabs are really well designed), and they have to try and pump the volume to get the vocals heard. Much better to go with a 12" 2-way and a sub or a 15" 3-way.

clinton

Yeah... I think I'm seriously over thinking this.
This is what I'm thinking now after all your comments:

system for Vocals, electric guitar, (THEN IF NEEDED: a little bit of Bass guitar, drums and keyboard)
2 x 12" 2-way and a 15" sub
OR
2 x 10" 2-way and a 15" SUB
Keyboardist and Drummer each get their own Keyboard combo amps (maybe 100watts) and only go through above system if we really need to spread the sound.

What do u think?

AlanRatcliffe

clinton wrote: Yeah... I think I'm seriously over thinking this.

LOL! I do that. But it's a serious investment of money, so it really helps to get it right first time.

I just spoke to Nick at Bothner's Plumstead - he's the PA guy and is also both an acoustic and electric drummer. He uses a Roland PM-10 coupled with a bass amp) for electronic drum monitoring and puts everything through the PA. Actually, it would probably be a good idea to speak to him anyway - he seems to know exactly what is needed and was rattling off systems in different price brackets that had my head spinning.

clinton

Thanks Alan.... I think I'll give him a call.

Now all thats left is to sell my pedals to raise the cash.

Mr-M

Clinton, one important thing to note with PA rigs:
Lower frequency sounds require alot more power than higher frequencies. The general rule is to have double the amount of power running through your subs compared to what's running through the mids/ tops. Low frequencies have a much wider spread (i.e. LF is heard clearly throughout a room regardless of where you sit) but needs more power to be heard at a similar level to higher frequencies. That's why a bass player often needs a 300W amp to keep up with his guitarist's 50W amp.

Higher frequency sounds require less power to be heard at a similar level to LF because the human ear is more sensitive in that region. HF/ Upper mids are much more directional though, so speaker placement vs audience is very important to make sure everyone can hear the vocals.

So basically, this is what I'm talking about in power terms as an example:
Subs - 600W
Mids/ Tops - 300W

I prefer 12-Inch Speakers in my High/ Mid Cabinets and 18-Inch Subs. The lows are felt as well as heard and the mids/ highs sit better in the mix and are more clear.

A system with 4X 12" High/ Mids and 2 or 4X 18" Subs (with double the power of the tops going through 'em) normally makes for a balanced and punchy system.

I hope I explained that in understandable terms?

clinton

Hey Mr M

Thanks...Yeah I do know that fact - I'm thinking nothing less than 500w sub.
Popped into Coastal Music (I'm in Durbs) to check out some of their stuff. They stock Mackie ("whoooa...is that the price for ONE powered Speaker" I said) and Tapco (bit better) and ALTO.

They said ALTO was the same class as Peavey. Now...I have always loved Peavey and dont know if this statement is true...What do u guys have to say about Alto?

Also... have chatted to a few guys who really do recommend the powered Wharfedale Titan 12's.

I have never ever used higher end systems like the Mackies or the JBL's. Now I know that u get what u pay for, but, really, do u get double the quality for double the money or are u paying quite a bit for the name???????

example -
powered 250watt Wharfedale titan 12's = R4500
powered Mackie srm350 = R9000
THATS DOUBLE!!!!! DOUBLE I SAY!!!!!!
So do I get DOUBLE the speaker for that price????????
What u guys think.......

My Head Hurts....

AlanRatcliffe

You don't get double the speaker for double your money, but you do usually get better. As with anything else, it's one of those "diminishing returns" things. Given the budget, I wouldn't hesitate to get Crown amps and EV speakers - once you've used them, there's no way you go back.

Decide on your budget and get the best you can within that budget. If you have to compromise to fit a system into budget, compromise more on one thing rather than a bit on two items as you're always going to want to upgrade something if it's not up to scratch, so rather have to only upgrade one thing later. My 2c.

That's one of the downsides to powered speakers, upgrading always means upgrading both speaker and amp at the same time.