Jack-Flash-Jr
Arjun Menon wrote
singemonkey wrote
MIKA, lord knows I'll tolerate your spelling just how you want it. Except for one thing. For the love of puppies, please stop writing, "Ile." It burns my eyes like an AC30 on 2 burns your ears.
Respectfully yours,
The Monkey.
? For the love of puppies. Brilliant! ?
@ Mika : On the drummer topic, i feel that any drummer should be able to tone down. The sign of a good drummer (besides his/her sense of timing) is his/her consistency in his/her sticking/stroke technique (a major part of making any drum sound a repeatable science), feel and groove among other things. Does your drummer have any exposure to guys like Steve Gadd, Harvey Mason, Tony Williams etc ?
Or just using practice sticks.
MIKA-the-better-one
Our drummer is the most trained out of all of us, and is essentially a gospel drummer.......... But its under instruction from me, I have him play hard, Heck if he owuld have it I would make him play with his stick handles, or two sticks in each hand if it made the drums louder......
I could easly ask him to tone it back, and thus resulting in us lowering the volume, and thus giving a little more control to the situation. But for what I want to to do with this current project of music I am doing...... is I want guitars loud, not scooped marshall/ mesa loud, I want big Fender sound (as Johnny Marr would call it) I want big distorted bass, thats from also cranking the bass amp, and driving it through a fuzz. And I want the biggest drums ever... to describe how I want them I ask him to think like a gorilla......
I see alot of bands, who get great controlled sounds out of their gear, but I kind of guess I want to harness to an extent the uncontrolled.....
Consider it part of my musical plan, if i hear someone saying "Damn that band made my ear pop and bleed" its a good thing and I know we did it right...
I think its My Bloody Valentine who agreed ot play some festival on the condition that they could be as loud as they wanted, its just part of there plan...
At the same time I understand one must work with a sound engineer, which i do greatly, I send a tech rider and description a week or two before all shows, as well as talk to them at the venue and setup amps in ways that aid him as much as we can without turning down. Sadly most engineers never read the tech rider, and never quite understand what i am trying to tell them....
PeteM
Mika, I understand what you are saying to an extent. But if you're going so loud that the audience's ears bleed then they won't hear your music... so what's the point of it all... you may as well bombard them with a string of pyrotechnics in a confined space.
AlanRatcliffe
MIKA the better one wrote
But to get it to crunch, thats a mission..... even with a atteneuator, tried one once and my amp was not a happy fellow....
I've managed to get my blackface crunching at 3 on the volume instead of the usual 5 or 6. ? All the tones up full (but at gig volumes, the bass down to 5 or 6), and a 5751 in the phase invertor position. You can also have the power tubes biased differently to crunch at lower volume. Whipping the tube out of the normal channel also gives the vibrato channel a bit more oomph. I keep the attenuator on for home use (usually between 12 - 18dB reduction) and gig without it.
AlanRatcliffe
MIKA the better one wrote
I want big Fender sound (as Johnny Marr would call it) I want big distorted bass, thats from also cranking the bass amp, and driving it through a fuzz. And I want the biggest drums ever...
Make everything "big" and loud and
nothing sounds big or loud in the mix. Same as if you write everything in uppercase letters and bold all your text - there's no contrast, no dynamics - so no sense of scale and nothing ends up standing out.
arjunmenon
Jack Flash Jr wrote
Or just using practice sticks.
Or brushes. That will bring out technique in a flash.
MIKA the better one wrote
Our drummer is the most trained out of all of us, and is essentially a gospel drummer.......... But its under instruction from me, I have him play hard, Heck if he owuld have it I would make him play with his stick handles, or two sticks in each hand if it made the drums louder......
I could easly ask him to tone it back, and thus resulting in us lowering the volume, and thus giving a little more control to the situation. But for what I want to to do with this current project of music I am doing...... is I want guitars loud, not scooped marshall/ mesa loud, I want big Fender sound (as Johnny Marr would call it) I want big distorted bass, thats from also cranking the bass amp, and driving it through a fuzz. And I want the biggest drums ever... to describe how I want them I ask him to think like a gorilla......
Yoda say "Two sticks per hand a drum do not louder make". You can get a big drum sound without going deaf - check out LedZep's
When the levee breaks and
Moby Dick. Four sticks doesn't count because it was Bonham's reaction to something he saw Keith Moon do.
Speaking of gorillas, there's one in a dairy milk ad that does a great job of imitating Phil Collins ?
I also agree with Pete, if it's all out aural assault you're after, then the listener is probably just going to hear a whole lotta noise.
Alan Ratcliffe wrote
MIKA the better one wrote
I want big Fender sound (as Johnny Marr would call it) I want big distorted bass, thats from also cranking the bass amp, and driving it through a fuzz. And I want the biggest drums ever...
Make everything "big" and loud and
nothing sounds big or loud in the mix. Same as if you write everything in uppercase letters and bold all your text - there's no contrast, no dynamics - so no sense of scale and nothing ends up standing out.
What e just said!
DonovanB
Let us remember to take posts from whence they come...
I kinda like what Mika says. I don't necessarily agree with it, but too many bands, especially South African Bands, pussyfoot around what is or isn't acceptable.
I don't have to like the music but I like the attitude. Rock n Roll should never be about holding back.
The Foo Fighters give it horns and they also make use of dynamics.
MIKA-the-better-one
@ Donovan .. yes thats a sentiment i relate to.. alot of pussyfooting...
I do understand loud all the time is not the answer, and you must understand I do not make it ridiculous, but I do like it loud..... I get people evrery once and awhile, say wow it was way to loud, but at the same time I get others say they loved it... and it should be louder...... I cant please evryone and do not want to, so I cater to those who understand what I am trying to do....... The people who complain for example at Tings I had a fellow making angry remarks at sound check, Ile turn it up a bit more to annoy him that little bit more.... And I love doing this...
I think what gets me the most is that, I have seen bands get great loud sounds in small venues, so I try do that here in SA....... I doubt you would see Jack White saying hey i am in a small club, ile use an AC15, no he wont, he will use his Twin...... I think artists should stick to there guns on sound, and they way they want it, its there art, and art is not always comfortable for evryone....
About using brushes to tone the drummer down, when finding this drummer, I stole him from another band with other musicians saying "dude that guy drums to loud" that is what drew me to him...... Our music would not translate with brushes, like the example I posted it wont work
Sidecar
MIKA the better one wrote
So often I find engineers and musicians he are so intent on heling the engineer get his sound, but sadly the engineer is not the artist, thus his job i would say is to cater to the band, and the sound they want....
Actually, a good engineer is an artist!
PeteM
Sidecar wrote
MIKA the better one wrote
So often I find engineers and musicians he are so intent on heling the engineer get his sound, but sadly the engineer is not the artist, thus his job i would say is to cater to the band, and the sound they want....
Actually, a good engineer is an artist!
+1
AlanRatcliffe
Sidecar wrote
MIKA the better one wrote
So often I find engineers and musicians he are so intent on heling the engineer get his sound, but sadly the engineer is not the artist, thus his job i would say is to cater to the band, and the sound they want....
Actually, a good engineer is an artist!
+ another 1 (just like the other one)
singemonkey
Alan Ratcliffe wrote
Sidecar wrote
MIKA the better one wrote
So often I find engineers and musicians he are so intent on heling the engineer get his sound, but sadly the engineer is not the artist, thus his job i would say is to cater to the band, and the sound they want....
Actually, a good engineer is an artist!
+ another 1 (just like the other one)
That's why you want one as a band member. Problem is the groupies ignore them and they get bored during practise, so keeping them is a serious challenge.
Warren
A good sound engineer is like a good editor: they take the original work and make it even better. They can see or hear the underlying ideas and understand what needs to be done to make that character even MORE despicable, or that solo even MORE powerful etc.
The fact that an engineer has to do a lot of this on the fly makes his contribution all the more creative.
MIKA-the-better-one
So I played tings again the other night, and a band (un named) got up.... now I know these guys can play... really I do..... One guitarist uses a gibson explorer, the other a deluxe USA strat. There songs are Power pop/rock...... they have a good drummer... so all is in there favour.....
But they pull out 2 rather unglamorous solid state amps, a fender frontman (I used to have one) and a marshall 212 of some sort. The tone may i say was not good, there was no definition, and one thing i noticed.. the sound itself was alot quiter than my band, but it was awful to listen to because it was harsh on the ears, and shrill, thus created the illusion to most people that they were "To Loud"
We played after them, I put my amp on 5 yes, and then I boost that with a TS808, then fuzz.... then we have a super twin 180 watts tube, with fuzz, then a ampeg svt 4 with 8 by 10 cab... so we are ALOT louder aLOT.... and what do i get told by the engineer at the end..... "Oh you guys were super easy to mix for it was somehow alot warmer sounding"
May i add also played another show on friday at the woods in newtown .. and we had a great engineer who had to cram our sound into a tiny room of concrete, and a small pa..... he looked at our gear and let us setup how we wanted, positioned us onstage just right, and guess what ... GREAT SOUND...... on and off stage... funny enough he was an engineer just back from working with the smashing pumpkins
Bob-Dubery
MIKA the better one wrote
We played after them, I put my amp on 5 yes, and then I boost that with a TS808, then fuzz.... then we have a super twin 180 watts tube, with fuzz, then a ampeg svt 4 with 8 by 10 cab... so we are ALOT louder aLOT.... and what do i get told by the engineer at the end..... "Oh you guys were super easy to mix for it was somehow alot warmer sounding"
There's something interesting here. Bands that sound good, IMO, make it easy for the sound guy. They know how to get their own gear sounding good so that they can present the sound they want to the PA, they know about what effect they are trying to achieve, the balance of the various instruments etc, if they want a lot of reverb on the vocals etc etc blah blah and they will give all that to the sound guy.
I was at a gig recently (no names) where the soundguy is often maligned. The band in question (no names) soundchecked (except for the lead guitarist who was late). Then when they came to play they stood in different positions thus not in front of the microphones they had each soundchecked on, moved mic positions during the set, and the lead player wanted to be miced up and just took the remaining mic and sort of hoped for the best. Not great sound, lots of grumbling, NOT the sound guy's fault.
MIKA-the-better-one
yeh its very true bands need to know their sound...... Also the limits of their sound..... I know if I wanted to play hard rock, or heavier music, I would not use my fender bassman, I owuld invest in a marshall, or a orange or and amp of that type........
Bands themselves I always suggest they should send a detailed tech roder to the sound guy a few days before..... Our bands tech rider is about 3 pages..... simple but it explains in detail what we want and need to be happy stage wise........
Most bands I have come to experience, dont even bring there amps out of their hometown because its to much effort, and they just borrow what they can find... which is a unproffesional gamble.... again itmakes me weep for them.....
To be a serious band one needs to really take them time to know what is needed,, and be on time to shows long before one plays
arjunmenon
MIKA the better one wrote
To be a serious band one needs to really take them time to know what is needed,, and be on time to shows long before one plays
Best point by far Mike, but i still think you're a little fascist..especially on the solid state vs. valve amp issue.
MIKA-the-better-one
Facist ? ?
maybe a bit, but you cant blame me from the experience i get at numerous over 100's of shows, I am conditioned this way....... really... really... really....
I once saw a reggae band do a roland jazz120 and it was nice, but would have sounded better with a twin.
There is simply no way to back up a roland cube onstage.. or a marshall MG, and to anyone with those amps I dont dislike you, I just have no elusions that they are not pro and will never be
guidothepimmp
i agree with you on the mg issue.. theyre terrible
there are great ss amps though.. point fingers at the plonkers that cant eq them though.. its not always the kit. unless its the mg100dfx lol
Jacquesg4j
Since you don't get any 1c or 2c coins anymore... Here's my 5c worth...
Saw Mica's show on Saturday at Tings n' Times... The loudness was not "too" loud but yes there was a huge difference between them and the band before them... And yes tone-wise a big difference. Why I would say that the loudness suits your band is the fact that there is a lot more going on musically than vocally. The PA could not really compete with 2 roaring Fenders and the bass amp being very loud... Did the loudness bother me? NOOOO! Did it bother me that I could not hear the vocals?? YEEES!
So if I liked playing at loud volumes I would also take into consideration if the venue's PA system can amplify my voice enough so that the crowd can actually hear what I am singing about?? But since IMO there is a lot more jamming than singing in your band... JAM LOOOUUUDDD!!!
