I weep for some musicians

MIKA-the-better-one · 2011-02-25T12:24:07+00:00

Last night I had the great oppurtunity at a show, to borrow a Vox ac30 HW (older edition) I was so excited to try this out with my gear. SO I got straight into trying ot make it sound great. Now as I know Ac30's a little bit, and I know my sound quite well, I ended up putting the top bost channel up to about 2/3 volume So it was a little crunchy clean...... Just the way I like it I played my show (we play notoriously loud) but it was infact not as loud as when i use my bassman Now When the next 2 bands got on, they proceeded to freak out that I had my amp so loud and they couldnt beleive I did that (actually they said that to both of us guitarists) They then went on to use the amps, and I noticed they set them to, about 1/5 of the volume, so what proceeded was a very thin/ crap sound. May I add they were supposed to be rock n roll bands however there was no hint of that in there setup or sound Lastr band got on, and guess what they cranked the amps, and it sounded GREAT........ But really now, there is a issue here......

DonovanB

If the amp is small, and the PA isn't big enough to compensate for actual amplification of the good tone then it is hopeless.

Malkav

singemonkey wrote 50watt and 100watt amplifiers were designed for professional musicians playing to large venues. Big theaters. Not pokey nightclubs. Before there was any micing of guitar amps live. I agree that these amps need to be cranked for max tone - and I think that, even if it's an opinion, it's also a matter of consensus. But to me it seems foolish to use such powerful amplifiers in the kinds of venues we play.

This I agree with, it's part of why I choose to use multi-fx instead of a valve amp. Yeah the one could sound "arguably" better but only at horrific volumes, and if you want that Mesa Boogie kinda massive overly rectified distortion you need amps with a huge amount of headroom and output (It's why triple recs are 150watt amps). I've yet to hear a 40/50/60 watt amp pull off that kind of sound, which is where I draw these conclusions from - this is my opinion I could be completely wrong and if someone can recommend an amp that manages that overboard heavy kinda sound (and I'm not talking high gain necessarily) in a low wattage amp then I will be greatly indebted to you. ?

vic

Donovan Banks wrote If the amp is small, and the PA isn't big enough to compensate for actual amplification of the good tone then it is hopeless.

Please enlighten me...the speakers of the average PA are not designed for guitar sounds ?? So my question is what's the use of playing a tone-amp (eg Vox AC30, etc.) via a PA ? I've discovered that one loses a lotta good tone this way. But I suppose that's the price one has to pay for volume and a good mix... :-\

MIKA-the-better-one

I think there lies the problem with some cases of bad tone.
A band with small amps (good tone) low volume, needs to rely on a PA to amplify there sound louder...... most PA's we use are underpowered and not that great sounding. So in the end the big guitar sound you get from pumping your low wattage amp through the front is not that nice....

Situation number 2 is big amp, cranked and loud, the Pa cannot keep up with it to bring voices etc over the loud guitars..... thus you get a lot of feedback etc from the engineer pumping the system. But there are more ways to deal with this and make it sound good, as compared to the situation with a small amp

TomCat

vic wrote
Donovan Banks wrote If the amp is small, and the PA isn't big enough to compensate for actual amplification of the good tone then it is hopeless.
Please enlighten me...the speakers of the average PA are not designed for guitar sounds ?? So my question is what's the use of playing a tone-amp (eg Vox AC30, etc.) via a PA ? I've discovered that one loses a lotta good tone this way. But I suppose that's the price one has to pay for volume and a good mix... :-\

Here I disagree...

The purpose of any good sound reinforcement system is to faithfully reproduce any sound fed into it. The tone generation parts are the guitar, effects, amplifier and mic. A small amp properly set up (same as for a big amp) properly mic'ed will sound huge through the appropriate sound system.

The sound systems job is to faithfully amplify further the tone already generated by said guitar...effects...amplifier...mic without adding or taking anything away.

The problem is usually:
1. Poor setup of the guitarists rig (as per Mika's first comments at the beginning of this thread)
2. House sound engineers who don't know how to mic an amp properly or do not know how a guitar should sound.
3. Poor in-house sound systems bought to a budget rather than to a requirement.

I recently did a large church meeting in Bedfordview where the guitarist had his AC-15 in a back room mic'ed up and running through the PA and monitors so there was little stage sound from his guitar. He was playing an original 74 Tele Thinline and we got great tone in the house with lots of level and fullness. The guitar was like a wall of sound hitting and enveloping you without it getting too loud or unpleasant.

vic

Which/what PA system have you used Tom ? Any specs on this perhaps ?

DonovanB

vic wrote Please enlighten me...the speakers of the average PA are not designed for guitar sounds ?? So my question is what's the use of playing a tone-amp (eg Vox AC30, etc.) via a PA ? I've discovered that one loses a lotta good tone this way. But I suppose that's the price one has to pay for volume and a good mix... :-\

Thats exactly it. It is not common for the FOH sound, be it by design or engineer, to get the mix right.

It can be done, as in Tom's example, and when it is done right it is a beautiful thing. That includes correct mic, micing technique, cables and eq/fx.
I prefer it cos I like a balanced mix in my monitors. Lately I've had to put up with no micing or lining out of my amp so it blares behind me and I hear efall else.

singemonkey

I think one aspect that a guitar player can control, is that everyone should learn how to mic up their own amp how they like it. I say this as a person who doesn't know how. I get the strong impression that dangling a cardioid mic in front of a speaker is a BS way of miking an amp - but it's very common. For those of use who have speakers near to the ground, those little podium mic stands would do the job. My bottom row of speakers will be out, so maybe I should get one of those clips that attaches to the amp and have my SM57 positioned just how I need it to deliver great sound?

Maybe Alan and some equivalent in JHB could show us how to get optimum sound. Once we know, we tell the sound guy, "This is how I'm miking the amp. Sorry."

My alternative to getting my amp overhauled was to get an Egnater Rebel20 = a variable power amp with an ability to mix between different types of tubes for more Marshall or more Fender kinds of sounds. Unbelievable rave reviews for this amp. My point is, 5watts is too small for the range of venues we play usually. 50watts is too big. 20-30watts will handle any club gig (although even 30's too much for many situations). Any bigger than that they're gonna mic you up anyway, and 20watts will still be plenty for hearing the amp on that big stage.

Warren

singemonkey wrote
My alternative to getting my amp overhauled was to get an Egnater Rebel20 = a variable power amp with an ability to mix between different types of tubes for more Marshall or more Fender kinds of sounds. Unbelievable rave reviews for this amp. My point is, 5watts is too small for the range of venues we play usually. 50watts is too big. 20-30watts will handle any club gig (although even 30's too much for many situations). Any bigger than that they're gonna mic you up anyway, and 20watts will still be plenty for hearing the amp on that big stage.

I agree fully. This is why my next amp is definitely going to be a Night Train. Fiddling with the attenuator on my 50W is just a pain in a gig situation, and I mic it up anyway so I only need it to be loud enough for on-stage monitoring.

MIKA-the-better-one

Man there is not a chance ever that i could pull off a amp below 22 watts, especially in this band I am in now.......

Jack-Flash-Jr

MIKA the better one wrote Man there is not a chance ever that i could pull off a amp below 22 watts, especially in this band I am in now.......

~~I just don't believe you.~~ Do you mean in practice situations? And why practice at those levels anyway?

Edit: that reads a bit harsh

MIKA-the-better-one

Practice, is fine, we put the amps at about 5 and go for it...... its in a gaint hall, it levels out with the drums just right at that volume...
Gigs, in small venues well, I dont go below 4.5 volume wise.... I just dont do it, it would kill the tone.

Give me a ac15, and there is no way our music would translate...... same way if you gave me a mesa boogie it would not work...... Fender anything above deluxe reverb, and maybe an ac30........ Even the Damn Deville's i used once were no good....

With that ac30 I had to have it above half on the volume to hear it over the drummer......

Norman86

Why not tell the drummer to tone it down? :-\

Just a thought! use it, dont use it, you know!

TomCat

vic wrote Which/what PA system have you used Tom ? Any specs on this perhaps ?

It's not necessarily about any particular brand, although there are certain brands I won't use as I believe they don't deliver the goods.

But any professional system will do the job.

EG. At my church I have Tascam/Crown/JBL with shure and AKG microphones....a combination hard to beat.
The system I used in Bedfordview was Allen & Heath/C-Audio and Turbosound with AKG microphones.

Ive also used systems with Meyersound, Nexo, Electro-Voice loudspeakers etc, all with good results and with styles ranging from Jazz to hard rock.

One key is how has the system been designed and installed in the venue.

For me the biggest factor is not so much the system but the engineer behind the mixing console.
A good engineer can make a relatively poor sound system sound good. A bad engineer can very easily make a very good sound system sound very BAD..!!!! as the system will very faithfully reproduce the bad input the engineer has put into his mix.

Regarding mic'ing a guitar amplifier, dangling a mic through the handle and having it drape in front of the loudspeaker is a big no.no....Major tone killer.

My personal preference is to mic slightly off center to the loudspeaker cone and be about 20cm away from the grille to get a more balanced sound of the loudspeaker and the cabinet resonance. too close and it can become harsh and too direct.

If your tone is important to you then get one of these

IMO one of the best mini boom microphone stands money can buy and they are relatively inexpensive.It allows you to mic up just about any amplifier out there and takes up very little space in your gig bag. It has a nice heavy base and is very stable.

Add to it the mic of your choice (Mine is a Shure Beta 56A) and off you go.

vic

Thanks Tom...very useful info.

MIKA-the-better-one

Dude I dont believe you can tell a drummer to tone it down, Ile have plenty of time for that when i am old....
ALso I dont really think some music translates if its toned down....
For example take this band they cant tone it down or it wont work...
The band I am in is similar

singemonkey

MIKA, lord knows I'll tolerate your spelling just how you want it. Except for one thing. For the love of puppies, please stop writing, "Ile." It burns my eyes like an AC30 on 2 burns your ears.

Respectfully yours,

The Monkey.

Sean

singemonkey wrote MIKA, lord knows I'll tolerate your spelling just how you want it. Except for one thing. For the love of puppies, please stop writing, "Ile." It burns my eyes like an AC30 on 2 burns your ears.

MIKA-the-better-one

That I can account for is my Cellphone language coming across.... sorry dude ile (oops) probably keep doing that without realising it. But for you ile ( I shall) try

arjunmenon

singemonkey wrote MIKA, lord knows I'll tolerate your spelling just how you want it. Except for one thing. For the love of puppies, please stop writing, "Ile." It burns my eyes like an AC30 on 2 burns your ears.

Respectfully yours,

The Monkey.

? For the love of puppies. Brilliant! ?

@ Mika : On the drummer topic, i feel that any drummer should be able to tone down. The sign of a good drummer (besides his/her sense of timing) is his/her consistency in his/her sticking/stroke technique (a major part of making any drum sound a repeatable science), feel and groove among other things. Does your drummer have any exposure to guys like Steve Gadd, Harvey Mason, Tony Williams etc ?

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