Tuning in 5ths?

[deleted]

I'm a cellist, who's used to strings tuned in 5ths. I'm dying to learn bass though but tuning in 4ths just blows my brain/left-hand abilities, and renders me a complete beginner, which is somewhat annoying.

So here's the question: do y'all think a normal 4 string bass re-tuned to C - G - D - A would work? (So the bottom two strings would be lower, the D would be the same and the top string would be tuned up by a tone...) I'm sure it can be done, but the question is would it still sound good/like a real bass, or would the lower strings be too slack etc? Your thoughts/experience/opinions s'il vous plait! ?

AlanRatcliffe

Nice to know that you are as confused by 4ths as I an by instruments with 5ths. ? It could work, but I think you'd need to fiddle (sorry!) with the string gauge of the E/C-string, going for as heavy a gauge as you could find. Otherwise I think the tension would be too low and the string too floppy. Consider a five or six string bass uses a 0.130 for the low B string, while a Standard E is usually +/- 0.100...

Keira-WitherKay

yeah i see no prob with retuning a bass, as alan mentioned maybe might take some trial and error and if you willing to throw some money at it by buying a few different bass strings till you find what works best ( but in that regard speak to some of the more experienced bassists in your area who could help you select the correct gauges)

in reality the only reason we play guitar like it's tuned cos thats how we learnt it... ? many acoustic guitarists use alternate tunings and don't damage their instruments .but yes it is a mindf&ck to be an acomplished musician on oine instrument and make the shift to another.....

i think you have the right idea of changing the tuning ...... far easier that way .......

best of luck

[deleted]

Alan Ratcliffe wrote: I think you'd need to fiddle (sorry!) with the string gauge of the E/C-string, going for as heavy a gauge as you could find. Otherwise I think the tension would be too low and the string too floppy. Consider a five or six string bass uses a 0.130 for the low B string, while a Standard E is usually +/- 0.100...

Ja, I agree that the tension would probably be too low... Spose I could get a 5 string and tune the bottom B up to a C? But then the other strings would probably all snap from being tuned too high! I fear I need to investigate the sciences behind this... lol ?

[deleted]

Keira WitherKay wrote: if you willing to throw some money at it by buying a few different bass strings till you find what works best ( but in that regard speak to some of the more experienced bassists in your area who could help you select the correct gauges)

In Cello-land good strings are unbelievably expensive, so buying a few different strings & experimenting is definitely an option.

in reality the only reason we play guitar like it's tuned cos thats how we learnt it... ?

it's the same for bowed string instruments!

many acoustic guitarists use alternate tunings and don't damage their instruments .but yes it is a mindf&ck to be an acomplished musician on one instrument and make the shift to another.....
i think you have the right idea of changing the tuning ...... far easier that way .......

Thanks for the vote of confidence in my scheme! lol ? Tuning in 5ths (especially if its the same 5ths as on my cello) would mean that I could probably play half-decently within a matter of days, so although it'd involve a bit of admin at the front end, I'm pretty sure it would be worth it, and quicker than trying to re-learn my 'note-map' in 4ths, as it were.

Keira-WitherKay

MoreCowBell wrote:
Alan Ratcliffe wrote: I think you'd need to fiddle (sorry!) with the string gauge of the E/C-string, going for as heavy a gauge as you could find. Otherwise I think the tension would be too low and the string too floppy. Consider a five or six string bass uses a 0.130 for the low B string, while a Standard E is usually +/- 0.100...
Ja, I agree that the tension would probably be too low... Spose I could get a 5 string and tune the bottom B up to a C? But then the other strings would probably all snap from being tuned too high! I fear I need to investigate the sciences behind this... lol ?

well quite often the big stores and online, one can buy bass strings individually ...... as i mentioned you may need to throw some money at it but you not tuning up or down that much so i doubt little damage will occur

but yeah heres what i would try .......... low B and tune it up to C ( only 1/2 step so no prob with tension ...... ) then for G maybe just get a heavy gauge A and detune a step the D is the same so no worries and the A i would get a very light G and tune up (lighter gauges need less tension to get the pitch)

so thats a start

just watch the bass's neck if you see it curving under the tension rethink it but i doubt it ..also buy a bass with a sturdy thick neck rather than some of these very thin necks which would definitely bend easier under tension ........

AlanRatcliffe

Keira WitherKay wrote: but yeah heres what i would try .......... low B and tune it up to C ( only 1/2 step so no prob with tension ...... ) then for G maybe just get a heavy gauge A and detune a step the D is the same so no worries and the A i would get a very light G and tune up (lighter gauges need less tension to get the pitch)

Exactly what I was thinking: .045, .070, .090, .130 should work.

MikeM

Maybe take it to a tech, tell him your needs and get him to set it up for the new strings?

[deleted]

thanks y'all - most heplful advice. Will let you know if/when I have a success story to share! ?

BMU

It'll work. Try with the strings you have on there - nothing to lose. Then try with Alan's suggested string gauges. Make that truss rod do the job it's supposed to, tighten it up to decrease neck bow as required.

I.t.o. string tension this can't be any worse than the not-too-uncommon practice of tuning a 4 string bass down 5 semi's to B with heavier gauge strings, which I've done to my poor unsuspecting Jazz bass.

Total respect for being a cello ninja, by the way.

Renesongs

I just tuned my low 4 strings in 5ths C G D A beautiful resonant but very difficult to navigate. I tried to play a c major scale in two octaves ended up walking all over the neck then I tried a few bars of Bach's first Cello concerto - ouch had to dial up my GPS and my chromatic tuner to find my way home again. I take it that a cello's fretboard neck is much shorter than a guitar.

I think it is a case of calculating the sting gage to the tuning so that the tension on each string stays as even as possible. There needs to be a larger gradient in the gauges between strings. Check the gauge of your cello strings. From my little experiment on guitar I also the intonation on the frets were going out my chromatic tuner didn't quite agree with the notes I was fretting. This may be a problem so you may need to go fretless. The big issue me was the big distance one needs to travel across the neck to play even a chromatic scale. However let me not be all doom and gloom. You could be on the verge of making history and changing the face of bass guitar forever, definitely worth a try. 8)

PS I've been snooping around bass string gauges and I reckon the following might work
C =0.125
G= 0.95
D =0.60
A =0.40

Hammeron

@ MoreCowBell, are you familiar with Apocolyptica?!!!

singemonkey

Historically, the only reason bass guitars are tuned in 4ths is so that guitar players could quickly get the hang of them - thereby multiplying by a large number the resources of bassists available in popular music.

You wouldn't consider getting a cheap upright? ? Not enough of those around.

Keira-WitherKay

singemonkey wrote:
You wouldn't consider getting a cheap upright? ? Not enough of those around.

@ singe ? no such thing as a cheap upright even the plywood chinese made ones are in double figures ...... and a halfway descent one is at least 30 k and up way way up although i saw an electric one (without the body ) at marshall for about 11K before discount that looked like a vibe.........but it wasn't anything top end also eastern made

ezietsman

I believe uprights are tuned in 4ths. May be wrong. It happens quite often...

Wizard

perfect 5ths are easier to hear and tune ... hence the history.
frequency ratio is 3:2

Renesongs

ezietsman wrote: I believe uprights are tuned in 4ths. May be wrong. It happens quite often...

Yes your belief is accurate hence my concern re scale length of cello vs bass

perfect 5ths are easier to hear and tune ... hence the history.
frequency ratio is 3:2

Yes until those Baroque twits went and ruined the friendship with equal temperament never mind they got their just desert when West African intonation crossed their paths and the rest is all history.

[deleted]

Renesongs wrote: I just tuned my low 4 strings in 5ths C G D A beautiful resonant but very difficult to navigate. I tried to play a c major scale in two octaves ended up walking all over the neck then I tried a few bars of Bach's first Cello concerto - ouch had to dial up my GPS and my chromatic tuner to find my way home again. I take it that a cello's fretboard neck is much shorter than a guitar.

I think it is a case of calculating the sting gage to the tuning so that the tension on each string stays as even as possible. There needs to be a larger gradient in the gauges between strings. Check the gauge of your cello strings. From my little experiment on guitar I also the intonation on the frets were going out my chromatic tuner didn't quite agree with the notes I was fretting. This may be a problem so you may need to go fretless. The big issue me was the big distance one needs to travel across the neck to play even a chromatic scale. However let me not be all doom and gloom. You could be on the verge of making history and changing the face of bass guitar forever, definitely worth a try. 8)

PS I've been snooping around bass string gauges and I reckon the following might work
C =0.125
G= 0.95
D =0.60
A =0.40

thanks for the feedback Rene. Did an experiment on EZ's guitar this evening (lower 4 strings only) and it was a great success - I could actually play the damn thing! Notes/frets will obviously be further apart on a bass - as you say - but I guess that can be worked-around with a nimble left hand!

[deleted]

Hammeron wrote: @ MoreCowBell, are you familiar with Apocolyptica?!!!

Are you kidding me?! Apocalyptica = every cellist's wet dream! Lol! Definitely the 4 coolest cellists in the universe! (Diablo Swing Orchestra is also sublime, though not limited to cellos) 8)

[deleted]

singemonkey wrote: You wouldn't consider getting a cheap upright? ? Not enough of those around.

Lawd no dude! Aside from price & same problem of 4ths, the thought of owning (and hauling around) an instrument bigger than a cello is just insanity-inducing... ???