Acoustic guitar live rig setup advice needed please

racman · 2010-11-09T07:32:30+00:00

I am considering moving to a small rack system for live playing for a few reasons; namely improved sound, setup ease and portability (contentious I know but...

Acoustic guitar live rig setup advice needed please

racman

just checked out everything You Tube has to offer on the Fishman and I am not that impressed with the sound - however, this is probably unfair and I will try and demo it somewhere.

Keira-WitherKay

hi ya racman........ the brutal truth is acoustic sound is a bitch ? so before you spend cash please decide if you will be happy with the "processed sound" which many are ..... or want a natural sound........... cos any fx on an acoustic even reverb will affect the natural sound......... and any pickup no matter how good basically colours the sound........... mic'ing up is the best natural tone but is impracticle for most of us....... so if your "beauty " of a guitar has a good pickup ... just try the fishman aura i also think it sounds great ........... but forget too many other effects...... cos you really want the guitar to sound like it does unplugged ...... unless as i said you want that effected sound...

btw the acceptable method on huge stages by serious sound engineers is to put your acoustic direct into a DI box ( which the aura is PLUS the modelling) and straight into the desk....... and if you want clarity add just a hint of reverb not more than that cos most rooms we perform in other than our lounge or studio has natural reverb and that is usually sufficient for any acoustic instrument when playing live....too many times we so used to the rehearsal space where there's no reflection that we add reverb at home only to find that live the guitar tone becomes unclear thanks to this and it will make the sound mushy and unnatural and try to leave the EQ as flat as possible........... cos if your guitar sounds good and the pickup is good you will have good sound.......... just through a PA with nothing more than a good DI box and use the PA's reverb

but as i said acoustic tone or rather natural acoustic tone is a bitch and nothing can beat a good mic'd sound

guitarboy2828

Keira WitherKay wrote: hi ya racman........ the brutal truth is acoustic sound is a bitch ? so before you spend cash please decide if you will be happy with the "processed sound" which many are ..... or want a natural sound........... cos any fx on an acoustic even reverb will affect the natural sound......... and any pickup no matter how good basically colours the sound........... mic'ing up is the best natural tone but is impracticle for most of us....... so if your "beauty " of a guitar has a good pickup ... just try the fishman aura i also think it sounds great ........... but forget too many other effects...... cos you really want the guitar to sound like it does unplugged ...... unless as i said you want that effected sound...

btw the acceptable method on huge stages by serious sound engineers is to put your acoustic direct into a DI box ( which the aura is PLUS the modelling) and straight into the desk....... and if you want clarity add just a hint of reverb not more than that cos most rooms we perform in other than our lounge or studio has natural reverb and that is usually sufficient for any acoustic instrument when playing live....too many times we so used to the rehearsal space where there's no reflection that we add reverb at home only to find that live the guitar tone becomes unclear thanks to this and it will make the sound mushy and unnatural and try to leave the EQ as flat as possible........... cos if your guitar sounds good and the pickup is good you will have good sound.......... just through a PA with nothing more than a good DI box and use the PA's reverb

but as i said acoustic tone or rather natural acoustic tone is a bitch and nothing can beat a good mic'd sound

Slightly off topic, but Keira what do you think of these? http://www.kksound.com/meridianpro.html I've heard some good things about them, it is a little limiting in that you can't move it and it's not in front of your guitar, but possibly a better sound than a UST?

Keira-WitherKay

guitarboy2828 wrote:
Keira WitherKay wrote:
Slightly off topic, but Keira what do you think of these? http://www.kksound.com/meridianpro.html I've heard some good things about them, it is a little limiting in that you can't move it and it's not in front of your guitar, but possibly a better sound than a UST?

frankly i have never tried one or know anyone who uses one....... but the concept is good..... and it'll pick up all the dynamics of fingernoise and righthand nails striking the strings which in essence is all part of the natural acoustic sound........

i'd like to try one......... are they available locally?

but the only problem with condenser mic's is the feedback ...so despite it being slightly different concept one might run into the same problems of feedback

guitarboy2828

Keira WitherKay wrote:
guitarboy2828 wrote:
Keira WitherKay wrote:

frankly i have never tried one or know anyone who uses one....... but the concept is good..... and it'll pick up all the dynamics of fingernoise and righthand nails striking the strings which in essence is all part of the natural acoustic sound........

i'd like to try one......... are they available locally?

but the only problem with condenser mic's is the feedback ...so despite it being slightly different concept one might run into the same problems of feedback

Ahh, that is true. I never thought about the feedback problem. I'm not sure if they are available locally, not sure if K&K is in South Africa? If they are I'm not sure who the distributors are.

Fingerpicker

Might as well add my 5 cents worth.

1) Nothing beats the LR Baggs Para DI for doing a simple job brilliantly . It is just such a simple bit of kit that gives bullet-proof performance IF YOU KNOW HOW TO USE IT! I've seen many players walk into the club and have to disconnect because they didn't have a clue how to set it up..
You can shape your sound to the room that you're playing in to reduce feedback frequencies (with notch filter and/or phase reversal). In a small room where you are performing and plugging straight in to the desk a DI box is not usually necessary. Some guitar cables can lose 1dB per foot. 4 Metres + of cable - consider the DI.

2) The Aura DI looks an amazing bit of equipment as well. I use a Variax "Acoustic" version guitar and occasionally use it live when in a band for its Mandolin, Banjo sounds and also the different tunings that I can store. Over time I use it more when recording than performing. I would imagine that the the Aura would also have this advantage. It seems that the Aura is the "next generation" of DI with all the extra features. I tried to get one a few months back at TOMS but they hadn't seen them yet.

3) Micing guitars works okay in a quiet environment. In a large room at the desk it comes over as quite feeble and has to be boosted and eq'd carefully. Some players move around while playing so the sound comes and goes. They move back, you increase gain on the channel and feedback starts its warning ring, they move forward, bass reponse starts becoming noticeable and occasionally they bump the mic. Plug in I say!

I would say that the audience is more impressed with good, imaginative playing than with effects. I would rather hear someone who plays/sings well than someone who is changing their sound all the time.

guitarboy2828

Fingerpicker wrote: Might as well add my 5 cents worth.

1) Nothing beats the LR Baggs Para DI for doing a simple job brilliantly . It is just such a simple bit of kit that gives bullet-proof performance IF YOU KNOW HOW TO USE IT! I've seen many players walk into the club and have to disconnect because they didn't have a clue how to set it up..
You can shape your sound to the room that you're playing in to reduce feedback frequencies (with notch filter and/or phase reversal). In a small room where you are performing and plugging straight in to the desk a DI box is not usually necessary. Some guitar cables can lose 1dB per foot. 4 Metres + of cable - consider the DI.

I have a para DI and I'll be the first to admit, I duno how to set it up. ? I play in a church setting and we meet in an old cinema. It's pretty much a rectangular tank of reverb, haha. We're put things up to try absorb the sound and it works ok. I don't get any feed back problems, but would love to know how to try different things with my Para DI to maybe get a better sound. Is it just a matter of playing with the knobs?

Fingerpicker

guitarboy2828 wrote:
Fingerpicker wrote:
Is it just a matter of playing with the knobs?

Honesty is rare these days.

Do you still have the instructions? If you don't please PM me and I will send them to you. They are also available on the LR Baggs website.
Basically what you would have to do is notch out the frequency that is giving you the feedback. This involes sweeping through the frequency range, hearing where the feedback is worst, then cutting it back until it disappears. You will find that you can usually turn up you guitar volume quite a bit if you need to. Also use the phase switch to see which sounds better. Otherwise, it is a matter of playing with the knobs to get the sound you want.

Read the instruction manual and learn it to the point where you can do it under pressure (live). The phase reversal button is the first to hit when you get feedback. Usually get a dramatic improvement.

guitarboy2828

Fingerpicker wrote:
guitarboy2828 wrote:
Fingerpicker wrote:
Is it just a matter of playing with the knobs?
Honesty is rare these days.

Do you still have the instructions? If you don't please PM me and I will send them to you. They are also available on the LR Baggs website.
Basically what you would have to do is notch out the frequency that is giving you the feedback. This involes sweeping through the frequency range, hearing where the feedback is worst, then cutting it back until it disappears. You will find that you can usually turn up you guitar volume quite a bit if you need to. Also use the phase switch to see which sounds better. Otherwise, it is a matter of playing with the knobs to get the sound you want.

Read the instruction manual and learn it to the point where you can do it under pressure (live). The phase reversal button is the first to hit when you get feedback. Usually get a dramatic improvement.

I do still have the instructions, so will definitely try that! Thanks ?

racman

I have ordered the Fishman Spectrum Aura DI from Matt of Music Madness who gave me an awesome price. Should be here this week, so we'll see how it performs on the weekend.

guitarboy2828

racman wrote: I have ordered the Fishman Spectrum Aura DI from Matt of Music Madness who gave me an awesome price. Should be here this week, so we'll see how it performs on the weekend.

Awesome. Look forward to hearing your thoughts on them! ?

AlanRatcliffe

Yeah - I'm very interested in hearing your opinions on it too.

singemonkey

I'm totally fascinated by the aura system. Can't even think about doing the conversion and buying one at the moment. But I found a first video of the aura being used with an electric guitar. I still want to hear it with an all solid electric rather than a semi-acoustic.

What seems evident to me is that you could get a better acoustic sound with a solid-body electric + aura than you could get from a great acoustic guitar with a super sophisticated pickup + internal mic + what-have-you but with no aura. And this tech will just keep improving.

In the future I'm definitely going to be getting piezo saddles for my Pacifica. With this kind of system, it'll become my live "acoustic" guitar.

AlanRatcliffe

@ Singemonkey - thanks for that. I've been patiently waiting for electric guitar video clips to pop up. His piezo tone is pretty much neutral though, so I doubt you'll get too much difference with a solidbody. The guy in the video is pushing the mix more to the image than I would personally, but it gives a good clear indication of what the image adds.

It seems that the bulk of the action with the Aura systems is in the midrange, so I'm still a little concerned with what will happen when blended with electric sounds, which live primarily in the midrange. Also my Graph Tech systems are pretty "quack-free" already, so I want to find out if the Aura will be too much of a good thing and kill too much of the attack.

racman

Hey Alan,

I am down in Pringle Bay ion December so if you would like I can bring the Fishman and we can maybe hook up so you can try it out. If it sounds cool, maybe I will leave my Strat I bought from MoJoJoJo ... (how many Jo's is it again ... ???) and you can do the Graph Tech installation for me sometime as well if it sounds good. Let me know...

AlanRatcliffe

That would work for me. I'm trying to get an Aura Spectrum DI for review now.

racman

I am down from the 20th to about 31st so pm me you contact details and I will get in touch when I am down.

singemonkey

Alan Ratcliffe wrote: It seems that the bulk of the action with the Aura systems is in the midrange, so I'm still a little concerned with what will happen when blended with electric sounds, which live primarily in the midrange. Also my Graph Tech systems are pretty "quack-free" already, so I want to find out if the Aura will be too much of a good thing and kill too much of the attack.

Yeah. I'm also wondering how it varies across different "platforms." I'm amazed so few people seem interested in this tech. Given how long it's been out, I would have expected youtube to be lousy with solid-body demos. The potential seems obvious.

I would guess that when your piezo has less quack, you'd just have to blend less of the aura model in?

When you blend with the electric - do you mean blending in the sound of the magnetic pickups? I'm thinking that the aura wouldn't be that great for that unless you send them out as separate signals. Seems to me it's a lot more an acoustic "simulator" than simply a more acoustic sound - like a pure piezo - so I agree that it seems dubious that the blend with the magnetic pickup would work so great.

AlanRatcliffe

singemonkey wrote: I'm amazed so few people seem interested in this tech. Given how long it's been out, I would have expected youtube to be lousy with solid-body demos. The potential seems obvious.

Fishman are actively trying to distance the tech from modelling, which they figure has a bad name in the acoustic world. They were quite rude when I asked them about the potential for solidbody piezos.

I would guess that when your piezo has less quack, you'd just have to blend less of the aura model in?

I figure that too. But the proof of the pudding...

When you blend with the electric - do you mean blending in the sound of the magnetic pickups?

Yeah, but not through the same amp or FX chain. I keep the two completely discrete until they meet in the air. Aura would go in the piezo FX chain and wouldn't even sniff the magnetic pickups' signal.

singemonkey

With two completely different signals it seems like, if the aura does its job, that it should work fine. You'll get two radically different sounds out of each speaker. One sounding entirely electric and one sounding entirely acoustic. Like what you were doing before but more so? As long as you pan them away from each other.

Anyway, I'll be very eager to hear the thoughts you guys have of them.

Haha. So funny that Fishman's all precious about them. The cat, I think, will be out of the bag pretty soon. But hey. It shouldn't be a surprise. A close miked Les Paul can sound amazing when the levels are brought up in the studio. The only thing they don't have is a sound-box - which a piezo ignores anyway.