singemonkey
R12K a bargain? That's what they're going for on take2. On Amazon (which take2 simply orders them from and then you come and pick 'em up - no floor staff, no stock, no nothing), they're R7,000. Hmm. R7,000 vs. R16,000. Let me think. No. I guess I'll take the R9,000 hit. It's supporting the stores after all... ?
IceCreamMan
i have to concede that it iis in my interest to have the local store ,in this regard Bob is quite correct , but the store and consumers in general need to accept and embrace technology which allows me to import an item for much less than going to my locval store so in effect the local store is inefficient in its operation and if it does not amend its model its going out of business...its that simple. as technology makes it easier for us consumers to import the more its going to happen.
a 70 $ pedal (480 ront ) street price pedal which i can land here for +- 750 incl all fees is a case in point. I contacted the local store and was quoted retial of 1495 but cos i am a most excellent customer i could have it for 1060...... thats 310 ront or +- 40 % more. The dealer does not buy the pefals at american street prices but gets a good discount and transport costs are lower per unit as thye no doubt ship it... so between the middle men and the dealer a lot of money is being made.
the local store needs to be aware that potential profits are being lost because consumers are importing themselves and that this trend is going to continue ....a random search on internet business transactions will confirm this .... and its only going to get bigger , much much bigger.... the local store/middle man is going to run out of places to hide as consumers become more knoeledgeable.
but i want an need my local store ,so a balance needs to be attianed. I live within a 10 km radius of 5 mega stores and a host of smaller ones .... to my limited keynesian mind this indicates so good profits being made.
singemonkey
+1 to everything IceCreamMan said.
AlanRatcliffe
singemonkey wrote
R12K a bargain? That's what they're going for on take2. On Amazon (which take2 simply orders them from and then you come and pick 'em up - no floor staff, no stock, no nothing), they're R7,000. Hmm. R7,000 vs. R16,000. Let me think. No. I guess I'll take the R9,000 hit. It's supporting the stores after all... ?
You won't get the R7K price from Take2 - they have a particular store on Amazon that supplies them (illegally, I might add - it's grey market) and their price is R 12,752. That's not far off what you should get as a discounted price from a retail store locally.
Norman86
Alan Ratcliffe wrote
singemonkey wrote
R12K a bargain? That's what they're going for on take2. On Amazon (which take2 simply orders them from and then you come and pick 'em up - no floor staff, no stock, no nothing), they're R7,000. Hmm. R7,000 vs. R16,000. Let me think. No. I guess I'll take the R9,000 hit. It's supporting the stores after all... ?
You won't get the R7K price from Take2 - they have a particular store on Amazon that supplies them (illegally, I might add - it's grey market) and their price is R 12,752. That's not far off what you should get as a discounted price from a retail store locally.
Alan, how do you know its grey?
BMU
The laws of supply and demand are immutable, if it's cheaper from overseas I'm not going to singlehandedly attempt to save the local music retail industry. (Actually I think some of the local guys are doing pretty well given the constraints etc. Just making a logical point.)
Anyway I don't see much advantage to being able to try out three badly set up guitars in a local store when I can just buy a badly set up one from overseas *if* it's substantially less.
Ok, the stuff I want never will be in the local store (certainly not three of them) anyway so maybe my view is not all that representative here in Fender Stratocaster Land(R), har.
AlanRatcliffe
Norman86 wrote
Alan, how do you know its grey?
Because Fender have told me it is. Fender US are very strict on such things and if the local guys complain, they will track down the store that is supplying them via Take2 and threaten them with cutting off their supply altogether. To be honest, I'm surprised that hasn't happened already.
Anyway, stands to reason - if a product is not coming into the country via the
only official distributor, it must be grey. Regardless of claims.
singemonkey
Alan Ratcliffe wrote
singemonkey wrote
R12K a bargain? That's what they're going for on take2. On Amazon (which take2 simply orders them from and then you come and pick 'em up - no floor staff, no stock, no nothing), they're R7,000. Hmm. R7,000 vs. R16,000. Let me think. No. I guess I'll take the R9,000 hit. It's supporting the stores after all... ?
You won't get the R7K price from Take2 - they have a particular store on Amazon that supplies them (illegally, I might add - it's grey market) and their price is R 12,752. That's not far off what you should get as a discounted price from a retail store locally.
That's what I said. They just haul them in from Amazon and the price goes up by R5,000. Je n'ai pas compris. No intiendo. And even with that R5,000 jump, as you point out they still don't quite meet the retail price after discount. What I'm saying is it's just too much. It's too much to ask a person for being able to play-before-buying, a quicker return system, and supporting local industry. To me that's just not worth paying R5,000 on top of the R7,000 value of the guitar (and take2 is another story - all the disadvantage of mail-order, none of the savings).
And I suspect that when more people become comfortable with buying from overseas, their business model is going to just have to change as per good old fashioned capitalism.
Ray
Ja well I have seen the proces on take2 and they look ok and legal or illegal what the hell. you cant jerk someone off and charge him more and tell him lekker it's legal. been eyeing a us standard but not yet anyway. I cant see fender whacking amazon either. Maybe but I dont think so. anyway, i have bought d'addario PB's off take2 bulk cheaper than anywhere I could find locally. under 500 for 10. so illegal? maybe but happy to be. just a sweat to wait so long hey.
something else that bothers me is the fact that people advertize a proce and then discount it and on this forum everyone always talk about what you pay with discount like that is always what you will pay so what is the deal with this discount? why not advertise the proce you going to pay in the first place? some time back there was a big deal about buying sony and stuff from hi-fi corp and that it's grey and all and so you arent covered by warranty etc. I remember the grey importers saying hey we give you a warranty and I know people who bought grey and got replaced items no problem no questions.
the thing is it is a system and we must support it so it can work. and if we dont they tell us we f'inng it up for everybody. in fact we just f'ing up the little system. and then they say you are a crook if you dont buy from the official importer. and I ask you why if I can get cheaper? surely someone who is charging plenty more than otehrs is the crook. I dont understand but I think it stinks. support what serves you or break it if it doesnt.
AlanRatcliffe
But it's not a R7K value - that's the rand equivalent of the value in the country of manufacture, which is unrealistic. The R12k figure is closer to the local value.
So, take the local RRP of R18K (not 16 as mentioned earlier), and discount by your standard 25% and you come up with R13,500. Take 2 was R12, 752 (when I looked this morning). So net savings are a princely sum of R748. In return for this saving, you don't get to play the guitar first (the dealbreaker for me) and wait two weeks to a month to get it. Plus in a store if you buy a new guitar (even discounted), they'll set it up and fit it with a new set of your favourite strings.
And what if something goes wrong with your new guitar? Take2 are rather vague, saying "Items ordered from the More UK and More US are not supported by the South African distributors and all warranties and repairs required will be handled through Take 2". If they have it repaired, who do they send it to? Do they replace it? If they replace, it means another 2-4 weeks and if you have had it setup & restrung, you'll have to do it again.
BMU
Alan Ratcliffe wrote
So net savings are a princely sum of R748.
I agree with that. Not worth it in that case. Agree also that R7k converted price is not the same as landed
value in SA.
And what if something goes wrong with your new guitar? Take2 are rather vague, saying "Items ordered from the More UK and More US are not supported by the South African distributors and all warranties and repairs required will be handled through Take 2".
This is rather worrying. When I bought a guitar I emailed them and got it in writing that if the guitar arrives broken I'll get my money back on the spot. Would it have held up in court? No idea. Food for thought. I should add what I bought wasn't available in SA.
singemonkey
Alan Ratcliffe wrote
But it's not a R7K value - that's the rand equivalent of the value in the country of manufacture, which is unrealistic. The R12k figure is closer to the local value.
So, take the local RRP of R18K (not 16 as mentioned earlier), and discount by your standard 25% and you come up with R13,500. Take 2 was R12, 752 (when I looked this morning). So net savings are a princely sum of R748. In return for this saving, you don't get to play the guitar first (the dealbreaker for me) and wait two weeks to a month to get it. Plus in a store if you buy a new guitar (even discounted), they'll set it up and fit it with a new set of your favourite strings.
And what if something goes wrong with your new guitar? Take2 are rather vague, saying "Items ordered from the More UK and More US are not supported by the South African distributors and all warranties and repairs required will be handled through Take 2". If they have it repaired, who do they send it to? Do they replace it? If they replace, it means another 2-4 weeks and if you have had it setup & restrung, you'll have to do it again.
(and take2 is another story - all the disadvantage of mail-order, none of the savings)
No disagreement with you on take2. The point here is that I can buy the guitar from the states, pay under R1,000 on top of the R7,000 to get it here. I've got quite a few repairs I can make before it even begins to approach the cheapest I can get it retail here.
Heck. If I had to write it off and buy a second one, I'd barely be over the local discounted price.
Maybe I'm being thick, but that's a pretty compelling case from where I'm standing.
BMU
@singemonkey: the R1000 is 14% VAT I assume... what about shipping? That's around $300 at least? (Sorry if I missed something earlier in the thread.)
singemonkey
Ah yes. VAT. Didn't think about that.
No. Shipping is $100 apparently.
Norman86
if i were to buy from musiciansfriend.com right now, i would pay $60 on the shipping...
at $500 for a new mexican, plus the $60 shipping... and even customs... wont come close to R7k...
it will be less than R4500...
and you dont always pay the vat on a product... it depends what mood customs are in with the price they charge you...
BMU
$60 on a shipped guitar?? Is it insured etc?
Norman86
im pretty sure it would be insured yes...
as i say, i had 2 zapco amps shipped with usps, and the smaller amp only cost $70 to ship, with insurance... on a $700 amp...
Vintage-Vibe
In a word, "G - reed" ...
But heed Alan's insight on retail and wholesale markups - a concept very few guitarists understand unless they've worked in music retail too (which Alan & I both have).
Example:
Joe Soap has R 7500.00 to spend.
He sees a Yamaha for R 10 000 retail and a Cort/Tanglewood for the same price.
Now, if he wants the Yamaha for the R 7500.00 in Marshall/Bothners, it's unlikely to happen because Yamaha's wholesale discount to the shop is MUCH lower than the full discount they get from their OWN wholesale import -
eg Marshall's wholesale company imports Tanglewoods, Bothner's wholesale division MD imports Corts.
See the correlation to the balance of stock & their respective discount on each shop's floors?
People do forget there is floorspace that costs rent, salaries & commission to pay staff (not just salesmen, but admin, domestics) electricity phone (which is huge btw) & water etc etc ... - that all comes off that profit margin people think is so huge
BTW I'm in total agreement on the Fender issue, which is what my opening statement correlates to - I'm also a big Fender player (own 4 of their instruments) and am very fond of the wholesale sales reps at Fender - Chad,Phillip and Robin are good souls - but they don't make the rules.
Just my 50 cents worth ...
AlanRatcliffe
Shipping also goes by volume, so a small amp doesn't compare.
USPS is relatively cheap - but they have size limitations, and often guitars (especially in boxed cases) are too large to ship. I got an LP Special in case a few years ago and it would have cost $100, but it was an inch too long for USPS so I ended up paying $350 with UPS (and I know prices have gone up considerably since then).
Courier companies (especially FedEx) also often arbitrarily charge you duties on occasion (as well as clearance and other fees). Smaller parcels via post sometimes get through without VAT, but anything larger they tend to check and also sometimes charge duties that they shouldn't (I once paid 33% on a box of valves) and if you want to dispute, it's a whole long process.
So you never know...
kayDUB
I've just arrived back from a trip to the UK; had to decide on this issue whilst away. I was looking at strats and went to various stores.
In the end I opted to go with a local SA store. The price difference was around 2K which I decided wasn't worth it for these reasons:
1. I had to bring it back with me in hand luggage - to get it to fit I would've had to have taken the neck off and pack it in my backpack. Some risk involved, not to mention the effort! Also I would've had to have carried it with me the last few days as we were traveling.
2. Over the last couple of years I have spent numerous hours in my local store trying out various guitars (even those I know I can't afford for comparisons), putting the staff through the ordeal of hearing my playing. Imagine you are selling a product and people come in to try it, using your time, in some cases torturing you ? ; knowing full well they will buy it elsewhere - where they aren't able to try before they buy?
3. The point that has been mentioned a few times in this thread - to support the local store, after all, that is probably where I will buy (and try ? ) a lot of gear.
Getting gear from overseas has its place, for me that is mainly for items you can't get here. However, having said all of this, if an item is really a LOT cheaper by importing, ie a guitar is 15K (with discount!)here but I can get it here (incl shipping & VAT) for 8K, thats a substantial saving - % and actual value. Now, I want to support the local store, but not at such large detriment to myself - I might not be the sharpest pencil, but I ain't stupid - thats a few pedals!
So what I'm trying to say is I think it should be a balance of all these issues: risk/effort involved importing, try before you buy/local support, and price.
To sum up I would order it like this: second hand, local store, import. ?
OK, I'm done now.
