Need Amp

FenderBender

I'm on a serious mission to get my Stratacoustic on an amp as it my first pluggable guitar and I have only practiced and played it unplugged.

I'm thinking of a Vox AD50VT as I feel it would be a very sensible long term purchase, but would welcome any sugestions as I am a serious newbie. I have had lighter nickel strings fitted and play whatever the neighbours will tolerate! I'm more of a picker than a strummer and will definitely use a record line out function as I plan to add a nice USB or PCI soundcard to my laptop or desktop soon.

Thanks people, the forum is brilliant and I sense a lot of cameraderie in the musical instrument player's world than any other profession I know of.

Graeme

AlanRatcliffe

Which Stratacoustic is it? I know some were acoustic guitars with piezos and one or two had an electromagnetic pickup too.

The reason I ask is if it is the acoustic version, then an electric amp is not the way to go - you should rather be looking at an acoustic amp.

FenderBender

Hi Alan,

It is the "piezo under bridge" semi acoustic strat and I understand what you are saying re low level, high Z piezo outputs on low Z amp inputs. There is a Fishman Classic IV BMTBV preamp built in to the axe's body that will make it electrically possible to use the axe on an electric amp or is your concern related to tonal quality? The Valvetronic amp is a full range system TTBOMK and one could use the Fishman preamp to roll off the top end if the Vox doesn't agree with frequencies >4kHz at it's input.

Incidently, I noticed that the AD50VT-112 is fitted with a Celestion 70/80 speaker, whereas all other AD Valvetronic amps use speakers from the "original" Vox range. A bit strange IMO. I am leaning towards electric playing, but may still play the axe unplugged occasionally, even if it sounds a bit thin with the lighter gauge nickel strings. I'm willing to trade off a slice of the acoustic nature of the sound for the Vox's effects.

With the above info in mind, do you think its worthwhile missioning to the seller and trying out my axe on the Valvetronic?

PS: Sent this to your personal addy earlier as the forum servers had folded.

AlanRatcliffe

Hi FB

I got your mail a little while ago, but was having a hectic morning (still am), so didn't get a chance to reply. I'd rather keep it on the forum where others might get some use out of it too.

The impedance isn't a concern to me, as I know the guitar has a preamp, which brings the impedance down to a usable level for any amp or mixer.

The concern is with the type of sound the amp is designed to recreate. Electric guitar amps are very much part of the sound of the guitar, they are designed to colour it, limit the frequency response and compress the dynamic range. The speakers in a guitar amp are very limited in frequency response, tapering off the high frequencies above 4KHz or so - and those missing frequencies are very important to an acoustic guitar sound. Obviously the speakers in a modelling amp cannot be bypassed. Often the effects in a combo modelling amp have a limited frequency response too, as they don't need the extended range for their application - electric guitars.

Acoustic amplification on the other hand is more concerned with signal purity and keeping the basic sound of the guitar untouched, just making it louder.

I understand you want something flexible and that will do anything you want to throw at it in the coming years (acoustic guitars, electric guitars, basses - in studio and on stage, etc.), and to this end I'd say you should be looking at a modelling preamp like the Vox Tonelabs, Boss GT-series and Line 6 Pods. With a modelling preamp, not only the amp simulation, but the electric guitar speaker tone is also a modelled effect and can be disabled, which is very important for acoustic. The effects are also optimised to work for either electric, acoustic or in a pinch, bass applications.

Another big advantage with this kind of approach is that you use the amplification system that suits the application: headphones for practice, monitor speakers for studio and PA and/or stage monitors for live.

Of course, the other approach is to get yourself a nice acoustic amp for now and get yourself something like the Vox AD to use for electric applications when you need it.

FenderBender

Hi Alan,

Shot for the post. Hectic life is more like it for me!

After a 150+ page browse around, I think I'd like to give the GT-8 a run. Now.... the question. Driving what amp and speaker? I'd need to try/buy an amp for the GT-8 solution. Do you know of any neutral sounding full range combo kaste for a reference/possible purchase or can you recommend a more characteristic sounding combo or seperate amp and screamer (I don't want it to just speak man ? to take home?

The tweede opsie IMHO is to find out more about the AD's frequency response. It may still be feasible to gooi the axe on an AD ?
I sent an enquiry to the Voxers in the UK and asked them for the frequency response specs for the preamp, power amp and 112 speaker for the AD50VT. It would also be great to find out what the DSP's effective frequency range is, or the effects could sound crappy riding on the bottom end of the response curve. The valve reactor might sound interesting with the effects bypassed though...

Hell, I never had an inkling choosing gear would be so bloody complicated! ?
I'm an electrical eng and to me the system topology, connection and operation of any amp solution is fairly easy to grasp, but this is a whole different bridge to cross and got me fretting a tad! Now we have to factor in human ear response, personal preferences etc etc etc. All that stuff differs from one axe grinder to another and the permutations are immense ?

So no more nitpicking and feeling wound up from my side, I'm going to have a few beers and try the Valvetronic tomorrow, wait for your amp/speaker recommendation and then try the GT-8 too ?

Thanks for all your time, dedication and expert advice! I'll let you know how the Vox sounded later ?

AlanRatcliffe

After a 150+ page browse around, I think I'd like to give the GT-8 a run.

Good piece of kit for acoustic guitars. The FX you will mostly use for acoustic - delay, reverb and the modulation FX - are all great in the GT-8

Now.... the question. Driving what amp and speaker?

Well as all the tonal shaping (acoustic or electric) will be done by the GT-8, you just need a good accurate amp and speaker. A decent powered monitor or a keyboard amp are the things to look at. A single 12" speaker and a tweeter will provide enough range, and 80 - 150W RMS will be more than enough enough power - if you need more than that, you'll be on a big soundstage with PA and then you'll most likely be utilising the PA to get your sound out to the audience and the monitor/amp will be just as your own monitor onstage.

The tweede opsie IMHO is to find out more about the AD's frequency response. It may still be feasible to gooi the axe on an AD

Check the manual, but I'm pretty sure you cannot disable the amp simulation for a full range sound on the AD.

I'm an electrical eng and to me the system topology, connection and operation of any amp solution is fairly easy to grasp, but this is a whole different bridge to cross and got me fretting a tad!

LOL! I see your problem. Electric guitar amps don't make sense from an E/engineering perspective. Early amps were limited by the valve and speaker technology available in the day, and by the time trannies came along, the sound of those limited devices had become an integral part of the tones and playing styles of the instrument - so much so that players didn't want to change. Take a look at almost any high end valve guitar amp today and you'll find the same circuit designs you'll find in the RCA handbooks from the 1930s.

Look at it this way: the electric guitar amp is an effect designed to modify the sound of the source at the same time as amplifying it. It's odd I know, but we are now using the modern digital technology to simulate the idiosyncratic tones of the old, imperfect technology.

FenderBender

A decent powered monitor or a keyboard amp are the things to look at.

Your post reminded me that I have a really good Arcam alpha 6+ stereo audiophile amp and a pair of delta 2 speakers (6" vifa drivers, 20mm soft dome tweeters, rear ported bass reflex design) that have been lying in my cupboard for three years. It is a brilliant combination and has never given any trouble. The speakers are even bi-wirable and all music sounds so much more alive and tuneful on this system. 50W true RMS per channel, top-end preamp with hard bypass, alps volume pot, negligible distortion, fantastic channel separation, a broad frequency response flatter than Joburg, award winning sound blah blah blah... Paid around 15k for the system in 1995 and that included an alpha 6 CD player and a wicked set of JPW-HS2 stands, silver sand filled, that are more tone deaf than a salesman at your favourite two year guarantee store ?

I think I'm sorted as to the route to take, although I'm not sure if I like the idea of an entirely floor standing unit as I'll break my back adjusting the damn thing. I came across a sweet (looking) deal on a Behringer V-AMP rack mount processor and MIDI control pedals for R2000. All I'd need is a good vocal mic, cabling, a 19" rack on castors and Eskom's co-operation and my recording/gigging setup would be ready to er.. roll ?

Hey! I have an ok..ish Numark 19" rack mount dual CD deck with remote jog/shuttle unit and crappy 3 channel mixer..... permutations!
My woman wants to splash out on an electric piano soon, so guests will have to sleep elsewhere as our spare room will be a studio real soon :-;

I was very impressed with the support on Behringer's website and have downloaded the works including, manuals, firmware upgrades for EPROM and a 5h1t house of other cool stuff including free patches and links and everything looks really really good.
It's all in the ears though so I think I'll give it a try ?

What think you Sir?

AlanRatcliffe

Your post reminded me that I have a really good Arcam alpha 6+ stereo audiophile amp and a pair of delta 2 speakers

Then you are set for home. I'm not sure if I'd use it live though - I've got a Mission Cyrus One I've used on occasion in a pinch. Decent sound quality, but unreliable for the extreme rigours of the road - blew the driver trannies (BD238 & BD239, IIRC) once and kept on having problems with the RCAs breaking loose of the tracks on the PCB.

I'm not sure if I like the idea of an entirely floor standing unit as I'll break my back adjusting the damn thing.

While I prefer rack units, floor units are fine - just make sure you get one that has an available PC editor, which makes editing easier on any unit. The GT-8 doesn't have one, but there is a hacked version of the editor for the GT-Pro which works via MIDI.

I came across a sweet (looking) deal on a Behringer V-AMP rack mount processor and MIDI control pedals

I presume you are talking about the Behringer V-Amp Pro - which is a Chinese knockoff of the Line 6 POD Pro. I don't know the Behringer, but I know the Line 6 one - decent amp and speaker sims but the FX are not wonderful. Make sure you can disable the amp and speaker sims for acoustic. If it's the Behringer FCB1010 floor pedal, they are great.

AlanRatcliffe

BTW - moved this topic to Gear, where it's better suited.

FenderBender

I'm not sure if I'd use it live though

I'd use it in the studio only and use house PA plus an active monitor or Shure in-ear monitor when live. Bank loans here we come! I think your woman should have a word with mine and set her right re the neccessities of having really good gear lmao!

While I prefer rack units, floor units are fine - just make sure you get one that has an available PC editor

There is a MIDI sequencer program available from Behringer that allows MIDI SysEx data to be exchanged between devices. Crude ya, but it works according to Behringer. There are also online forums, preset downloads and a VST plugin created by a third party. I would use Cubase for editing so shouldn't go too far wrong there ?

I presume you are talking about the Behringer V-Amp Pro - which is a Chinese knockoff of the Line 6 POD Pro. I don't know the Behringer, but I know the Line 6 one - decent amp and speaker sims but the FX are not wonderful.

It is the Blerrienger V-Amp Pro! I had a sneaking suspicion that the "Conceived and designed by BEHRINGER Germany" bullet points on the unit's online spec sheet and manual were suspect lmao!

Make sure you can disable the amp and speaker sims for acoustic.

The entire preamp can be bypassed. It also features a valve preamp sim that could sound good when used with acoustic axe or voice.

If it's the Behringer FCB1010 floor pedal, they are great.

None other ?

FenderBender

Oh btw, what do you think of the BOSS VF-1?

AlanRatcliffe

I think your woman should have a word with mine and set her right re the neccessities of having really good gear lmao!

Well, considering the audiophile grade kit you have lying in your cupboard, you shouldn't have too many problems - or does that predate the lucky lass?

? My spouse came complete with small PA, two keyboards, a brace of mics and a bag full of cables. Quite a few good CDs, LPs, tapes and books to add to mine too. Wasn't so much a marriage as a gear merger. LOL!

I had a sneaking suspicion that the "Conceived and designed by BEHRINGER Germany" bullet points on the unit's online spec sheet and manual were suspect lmao!

LOL! I just had a look. The same controls as the POD, same amps, speakers and FX are modelled as the POD, so you tell me. Even has the power button and mains input on the left and the guitar input on the right (which always annoyed me with the POD Pro).

what do you think of the BOSS VF-1?

How can I put this delicately? RUN AWAY!

I don't know how they did it, but the VF-1 with a 24bit AD/DA had much worse sound quality than the older SE-70 (18 bit) or even the SE-50 (16 bit). Bothners eventually sold them off below cost to get rid of the things.

FenderBender

Well, considering the audiophile grade kit you have lying in your cupboard, you shouldn't have too many problems - or does that predate the lucky lass?

We've been together 2 years so yeah the Arcam came first! In fact it was probably one of the factors that contributed to my divorce ten years ago ? I was thinking more along the lines of a Shure in-ear type cordless mic and guitar transmitter lol!

Wasn't so much a marriage as a gear merger. LOL!

Haha! My lady came with about 1000 CDs, decks, a mixer and a very musical family, so that was a bonus ?

Bothners eventually sold them off below cost to get rid of the things.

I thought it was a 19" unit, but the size of the jack on the front left gave it away! The damn thing looked too small to be any good ?

Going to check out the Behringer combo tomorrow ?

FenderBender

Ok so I picked up a Behringer V-Amp pro and FCB1010 MIDI foot controller for R2000 ?

I am rather impressed with this setup and it sounds really good with my Stratacoustic. The "Tube preamp" sim is the best for acoustic and the frequency response is great with my piezo undersaddle pickup and Fishman Classic IV preamp.

The rest of the amp sims are also pretty good, although the response is thin on strings 4,5 & 6 when using some amp sims. This is more than likely due to the fact that they are modelled for magnetic pickups that roll of after around 4kHz. So basically I can play acoustic and it sounds beautiful, rich and clean, or I can wind it on electric and it sounds like a regular Strat, apart from the sustained harmonics as it is a semi acoustic axe.

So yeah I'm happy. Now I need to hook up my Arcam amp and speakers and get the processor, mixer and CD decks mounted in a 19" rack. Anyone have an idea on the best place to look for one? 3 slots to be filled so far ?

AlanRatcliffe

All your strings should be balanced in volume, even with electric amp sims. The Fishman pickups are particularly sensitive to installation issues and I'm pretty sure you will need to have it looked at to get the bottom of the saddle flattened properly or even the saddle slot cleaning out (I fitted Fishman pickups for the importers for ten years and know wherof I speaks). The amp sims that don't show the problem are probably compressing the sound, evening out the differences in volume.

FenderBender

Alan Ratcliffe wrote All your strings should be balanced in volume, even with electric amp sims. The Fishman pickups are particularly sensitive to installation issues and I'm pretty sure you will need to have it looked at to get the bottom of the saddle flattened properly or even the saddle slot cleaning out (I fitted Fishman pickups for the importers for ten years and know wherof I speaks). The amp sims that don't show the problem are probably compressing the sound, evening out the differences in volume.

I had the axe restrung a week ago, prior to amping. One of the bridge pins (IMO plastic rubbish that remind me of the pins used for scoring a game of Mastermind!) came out broken and was replaced. I noticed today that the pin holding the 6th string (same string that broke, prompting the restring) is not inserted completely. The chap who changed the strings also battled to get the remaining piece of string, with attached ring, out of the hole. I can't remember if the broken pin was in the same position.

What should I do about the pin? Can I remove it without special tools? My concern is that it breaks on removal, so, pending your reply, I'll take care of that when I'm done playing tonight or pop in at my friendly neighbourhood music gear vendor in the morning as I can remember reading something about brass pins being a good replacement for the plastic ones.

Sometimes, I wish I had an electric axe as it would certainly be easier to make adjustments to or even refurb the electrics at home.
Hmmmm..... now there's a thought ?

AlanRatcliffe

Probably unrelated. Next time you have your strings off, take the saddle out and make sure the bottom is perfectly flat and there is no debris stuck to the bottom or in the saddle slot. If you're brave enough, lift the pickup out too and make sure there is no debris in the slot underneath it. When you put the saddle back, make sure it's a sliding fit in the slot - if it's too tight it will cause pickup problems. Sometimes just taking out the saddle and putting it back in again cures balance problems. If the balance is still out, I'll talk you through sorting it out.

If you have a bridge pin break, change them all - the plastic ones are nasty for that and usually once one goes, they all start going. Just loosen the strings from the tuning machines and push the broken pin up from underneath, inside the soundhole. I usually just use a pegwinder to push against the pin.

I don't really like the brass pins - lower mass actually works better for a balanced string response. The Graph Tech Tusq pins are good and should be readily available, failing that, real bone or ebony ones.

The new pin not seating properly is fairly common - it all boils down to the difference between a metric size pin (Asian made instruments) and an imperial (US made), with the imperial being slightly larger diameter, so it doesn't push all the way down into the hole of an Asian guitar. Not a big problem aside from cosmetic. It's possible to thin down the replacement pin to fit better or to enlarge the hole slightly to the imperial .020".

Hmmmm..... now there's a thought ?

Gas attack! ?

Vintage-Vibe

Sidenote Aln (4 Graeme)

The Roland KC-120 1 x 12" 120 watt keyboard amp sounds AWESOME with a GT-8 for clean power - I know this guy who is getting GREAT tones with this setup ! ?

FenderBender

The Graph Tech Tusq pins are good and should be readily available, failing that, real bone or ebony ones

Thanks for the tip Al. Couldn't help noticing the omission of ivory from the material list! It reminded of something I'm going to post on Friday jokes lol!

I am going to try (spouse reaction permitting) to whip the saddle out later ?
I still have not hooked up the studio system ?.....
Spent the afternoon installing my ex PVR and dual LNB at the folks place as I hardly ever used the thing and the drive was always chock full of stuff recorded and never watched. Besides, now that I've upped the cap on the iburst (essential GFSA comms device!), given the kids permission to play the old C40M, promised them a DVD rental contract and kinda like the idea of no feeling in my left-hand fingertips, it was bound to gather dust anyway ?
And it only cost the folks the price of some arb music gear, tea and a slice ?

it doesn't push all the way down into the hole of an Asian

(guitar)
LOL everything about that side of the world is smaller than anywhere else hey! Shame on Fender for not adopting a unique global standard! ? That said, aesthetics can take a back seat to the unique identification possiblities I could enjoy in case of theft! In fact every owner should invest in both metric and imperial pins and set their own, 6 bit binary id code. The chances are 1 in 64 that someone else sets the same code lmao!
Seriously though, I think the brilliant "Mr Fishman and the piezos" as well as the reduced weight might more than compensate for lugging around a dorkish, "electricish" looking axe ?
Now I need to work on a way to integrate a whammy bar lmao!

Gas attack! Cheesy

Ok Al, I must admit that one flew right over my strained city brain lol! What do you guys get up to in the country ?

Vintage Vibe wrote Sidenote Aln (4 Graeme)

The Roland KC-120 1 x 12" 120 watt keyboard amp sounds AWESOME with a GT-8 for clean power - I know this guy who is getting GREAT tones with this setup ! ?

Thanks VV. It will be interesting to hear how the V-Pro's simmed amps sound on my Arcam system. If they end up sounding anywhere remotely like an 80s "game & watch" (or a VF-1 ?), my very neutral old faithful will make no bones about letting me know and I will religously follow suit here ?
I'm more chuffed that my newly appointed studio amp will kick ass! The processor will be used for practice and amusing the kids and I'll use software for processing clean recordings as far as possible in an attempt to keep the analogremlins out ?
Feedback (as experienced when hooking the rig to my el cheapo Pioneer "theatre in a (relatively cardboardy sounding) box") could be interesting if I could keep it within limits. Hmmm this is the time of night I usually end up taking the road seldom travelled and it is a full moon ?

AlanRatcliffe

Couldn't help noticing the omission of ivory from the material list!

Fossilised walrus Ivory is fine (if you're willing to pay the price), but any other type, and I'll have to send some friends around to discuss it with you: http://ratcliffe.co.za/sundry/harry_sally_duma.jpg. I'm not a fan of the "legal" trade in ivory either: if we don't use any, there's no demand for the illegal stuff.

I've upped the cap on the iburst

Ouch! Expensive way to go. I had to up my wireless cap to 45 Gig this month, thanks to having some large software to beta test. Dread to think what that would cost if I were on iBurst. I may just have to go for an uncapped ADSL account from IS if it keeps up, but that will mean giving some of the money to Telkom - which I object to on principle.

Ok Al, I must admit that one flew right over my strained city brain lol!

GAS = Gear Acquisition Syndrome - something most modern musicians struggle with.