Norman86
Hello again...
Forgive my ignorance, but please could you guys help me with this?
i am considering buying a nice biggish marshall amp soon, specifically the haze 15 head and the matching haze cabs...
however, i have also been told about the MA series amps.
now, there arent many reviews on these amps, and i think i will only be able to hear them in store before i really make up my mind!
the differences though between the amps are in the power amp stages!
the haze 15:
Pre-Amp Valves 3x ECC83
Power Amp Valves 2x 6V6
the haze 40 combo:
Pre-Amp Valves 3x ECC83
Power Amp Valves 2x EL34
the MA50 combo:
3 x ECC83 + 2 x EL34
now, what effect do the different valves have?
i am trying to understand this?
Thanks!
oh yeah, on a sidenote...
what is the product hierarchy for marshall amps? (as in from smallest and low end to biggest and high end? thanks!)
Gearhead
The Haze 15 is some sort of a crossover between the MG series and the all-valve units. It does have an almost all-valve circuit, but there are onboard digital effects, diode biasing and some more sand elsewhere in the signal path. This however is not a bad thing per se, depending on the quality of the A/D & D/A converters and the effects themselves. The gain channel is pre-tone-control and involves one stage, this might or might not be your cup of tea; it makes for a looser, potentially bass heavy sound (that the speaker is going to have trouble putting out). If you are looking for modern high gain tight drive, this is not going to work. If you are going for old school rock, it is just fine.
The original design by James Marchant (know in AX84 circles) is compromised on a lot of points, they left out components left right and center. Also the caps are cheap and nasty. These 'features' would create nice upgrade possibilities as long as the PCB is of good enough quality. Dunno. Then there was a problem with the channel switching causing popping sounds, this can be sorted by replacing a pull-up resistor. I could not find whether this has been sorted out at the factory but I suppose it is a good idea to check.
The real issue with the Haze series is apparently that the build quality is not great. The baffles (plate speaker mounts in to) are chip board. I would either replace or reinforce this board since it is not roadworthy.
My conclusion is that it probably is worth the money but you want to check if it is your sound and take good care of it.
There definitely are sonic differences between the 6V6/6L6 tubes and the EL84/EL34 but they mainly come out when you start driving the power stages. The former are beam tetrodes whereas the latter are penthodes. You will be able to tell which tone you like: beam tetrodes give fat, rumbling, growling distortion (early American blues and rock) and pentodes give agressive, snarling and mid-heavy distortion (early British rock). Marshall traditionally is EL34 where Fender used 6L6. Played clean the differences are not so big, my preference for clean tone is the American tubes (did I just say that?). Again, you can not control power stage distortion without controlling the volume at the same time.
Another thing you need to remember is that a good way to save money on a tube amp is on the iron (slang for the transformers). There are roughly two ways of saving on trannies: make them smaller (which Leo Fender did, gave us those nice brown sounding amps) or making them out of poor quality materials (which seems to be the most popular method in Asia nowadays). This is why there are sonic differences between the more expensive tube amps and the budget ones that you just cannot make up for. They are subtle however, much smaller than the difference between solid state and tube.
AlanRatcliffe
As gearhead has mentioned, it's down to a lot more than just the valves - every component plays a part and the circuit topology also makes a difference. Speakers usually have more of an influence on the amp tone than valves.
It's also moot if you cannot turn the amp up to at least the edge of crunch though, so choosing the right power for your playing situation is probably the biggest deciding factor between different amps.
In general though - 6v6s have more of a midrange focus with softer highs and lows than many other valves. As a lower output tube, they break up a bit sooner, compress a bit more and have less clean headroom.
EL34s are more balanced tonally, but have have a slight upper midrange emphasis (a big part of what for me is the "true" Marshall sound) and crunch nicely when driven.
Norman86
thank you for the explanations so far!! ?
but here is my thoughts... i am looking for something along the 15 / 20 watt range...
while the MA series, on paper, then looks to be the better option, it is a 50waat combo!
how would a power squeezer then work with a combo?
or, what other amps in my wattage range could i look at?
at this moment, its about knowing what to look for!
i would love to purchase right now, but as a beginner guitarist, i am just browsing for now!
regards!
Gearhead
It might be better to first question why you think 15-20W is your preferred range? Why Marshall is the brand you are looking at?
When it comes to tube amps, I reckon as follows (not valid for solid state):
0.1-8W home practice /band practice if drummer is not too loud
10-20W band practice / small gig / mic'ed up for larger venue
30-50W medium size gig / mic'ed up etc.
Obviously you could mic up a small amp but it is going to be a compromise (somewhat depending on the speaker).
So if you are looking at being in a band you might be right with your 15W.
Then your music taste comes into play. Few people like Marshalls and Voxes for cleans, but they are popular when it comes to rock. You are not going to sound funky in a pop band if you cannot get clean headroom at 15W full tilt. If you are into metal, forget about 15W combo's - 40W head into 2x12" cab seems to be the bare minimum :?
It is just that that same metal setup will not allow you to really crunch unless you are in a somewhat larger venue and keep your ear buds in. Not recommended for a beginner, people tend to get modeling stuff in that case.
If you have the dough, there are some switching amps from Mesa that do it all. Otherwise, decide whether you are going to go for a 5W (options discussed at length on this forum) or 15W (Vox, Marshall, Fender, Blackstar, Laney). In any case, buying second had is always a good idea to get the goods without paying top dollar.
Norman86
15-20w:
as im a newb, and am looking for something that will last me a while, that i can play on and practice with! and sometimes just play at the amp's limits when i need to clear frustration!
band?! nah, not yet hey... also, i dont wanna have the neighbours complaining hey!
and anything bigger than the 15-20w is just gonna be extreme and overkill for me!
Marshall - well... there's just something about the dream that says marshall! but, i am willing to consider other brands, but will let my ears do the buying ?
I wont be buying immediately though... i will shop around, have a look and listen and all...
just interested in knowing about the valves and differences!
also... are there any other valves used other than the ones mentioned?
im really keen on learning about everything!
Oh yeah... i also like the sound of fender amps... but, like the frontman that i have played on, the overdrive is... well, not so good!
but the clean is awesome though!
regards!
MikeM
Man there are hundreds and hundreds of different kind of tubes. But the main ones used in guitar amps are: 6v6, 5881, 6l6 (as well as the 6l6gc), 6550, El84, El34. Think that's about it of the standard ones really.
Norman86
MikeM wrote:
Man there are hundreds and hundreds of different kind of tubes. But the main ones used in guitar amps are: 6v6, 5881, 6l6 (as well as the 6l6gc), 6550, El84, El34. Think that's about it of the standard ones really.
thanks...
and which are the preferred tubes? or does that come down to taste again?
regards!
MikeM
Well basically.. El84 = Vox, nice round warm tone. Relatively low wattage. 6v6, 6L6, 6L6GC = Fender, bright, a bit cold usually. In order from low to high wattage. El34 = Marshall, no experience with these but also high wattage I think.
So it's down to the tone + output really ?
Gearhead
An EL34 is the bigger brother of EL84 as the 6L6 is of 6V6. The other letters (GC and so forth) only stand for Glass envelope etc so do affect wattage but only in certain cases and to a limited extent.
Yes there are thousands of different tubes but only a couple of types are made today. There is a reason for this: they are the most useful ones. There a hundreds of tubes interchangeable with the 12AX7 but more microphonic and/or with lower gain, so the 12AX7 is the predominant preamp tube.
You could want an amp based on the ECF92 but where would you get one?
The KT series (topped with the 88) valves are not mentioned by MikeM, readily available, good tubes but little used in guitar amps. Overdriven they are not so cool. The list goes on, and on, and on...
MikeM
Gearhead wrote:
An EL34 is the bigger brother of EL84
I really didn't know that ? It's kinda obvious now though.
Gearhead aren't the KT's just Eu versions of US tubes, not exactly the same but based on them?
Gearhead
KT90 is similar to 6550 but the construction differs (100W of a single pair in AB1, must be awfully LOUD. Buy two quads for stereo rig ? ). The others are smaller: KT88 is very popular in hifi, KT77 is similar to EL34 but different construction and so forth.
You have to remember that tube designs all use the same principles so they all work alike. If two tubes of completely different setup use the same socket, they use the same pinout. If they are also the same voltage range then they will be exchangeable despite being completely different. I have a pair of Reflektor 6E1P that are supposed to be similar to EL84 but the internal workings are vastly different (not tried them out yet ☹ ) even to the untrained eye.
MikeM
Thanks, thought as much..
Ruan7321
Buy the JVM 410H or 210H!!!! You'll never need another Marshall again. And can cover anything from AC / DC to Cannibal Corpse.
