Some Les Pauls for consideration

mikeyb

Hey guys and Gals, I decided to make a quick stop into the new Marshall Music in Hillcrest in the Richdens Spar complex. Havn't seen the new shop and was eager to see what was on show. Up front, I must say I was a little disappointed with their range, they don’t have a great selection. It is a smallish shop though, so Nevertheless, that did not stop me from trying out a few of their little delights.

First up there was a nice surprise in the window, I just held it in my hands and admired the beautiful craftmsmanship that is the R36 000, Gibson les paul, traditional (that is the model name). It is basically a Les Paul standard with traditional embossed on the truss rod cover. Very nice, WEIGHTY ??? guitar though. It was beautiful in a vintage sunburst with neck and body binding, and I am sure will someday make someone a very proud owner.

I then picked up an Epiphone Les Paul Custom, white, with gold hardware. The white on it looked a little more aged than say your standard arctic white. It was more an antique white. I played that for a bit, and it had a really nice sound and playablility clean and distorted. Nice and thick tones. The change of tones from the neck to the middle to the bridge pickups would please most. It too was super heavy though and a little bit too PRONO with the all gold hardware. I think I could make do with that, if it had chrome hardware. Gold is too GLAM for me. That was retailing for R5995.
Overall really nice.

Then I think I picked up a gem. It is an ESP or rather the budget range LTD series. The EC-256 which is the Eclipse (read Les Paul shape) in an aged honey burst. It really has a great weight and balance to it, despite being what I think is a mahogany body with set neck. It has standard nickel plated factory ESP humbuckers with a coil tap.Yikes…. This guitar felt, played and sounded silky. Instantly, audibly different and I might say, superior to the Epiphone. The neck was I think a little thinner and quicker than the Epi too and sat a little more comfortably against the body.
Very, very nice guitar, and for R5895, it in my mind, has cleared a little bit of space ahead of the Epiphone.

So there we have it dudes and dudettes. My weekly round up of guitars I will never be able to buy….. but would like to.

They also had a PRS SE Custom and a Tokai model. I know how many out their simply love the tokai’s, so if you are in Durban near hillcrest pop in and ask Ian to try it out. The dude is very helpful and super friendly.

Cheers

Roberto

Ya gotta love shopping for US made guitars in SA!
Would be cheaper to fly to the states, buy the LP and fly back at that price!

infernox

Im looking at a Tokai Les Paul (Love Rock) but a Custom model here in Marshall Music Woodmead... stunning and a absolute joy to play!

DonovanB

The Tokai in Marshall Durban is a SG. I hate SG's so I didn't bother playing it. To me, no matter how good it is it will be rubbish. bleh..

I took some pics of that Les Paul.

I played it on a Line 6 amp. I would have liked to have heard it on a Marshall though...

Apparently they are using a machine to set them up now.
Does anyone know about this?
http://www.plek.com/en_US/home/

AlanRatcliffe

Donovan Banks wrote: Apparently they are using a machine to set them up now.
Does anyone know about this?
http://www.plek.com/en_US/home/

Yeah. Heritage, Suhr and Glaser have all been plekking for a decade or more now. Wonderful tool but still a tool - results depend very much on who is operating the machine.

I looked into getting one four years ago (very briefly - the small Plek was EUR94K then without shipping and without the costs involved in a two-week training session in Germany). Quite aside from not having over a mil to invest in one, ultimately there is not enough of a local market for a return on investment - I'd need to be doing all the fretwork in the country to make it viable and then it would take a few years to break even.

mikeyb

Thanks Alan. I saw the PLEK'D sticker, but had absolutely no idea what it was.

singemonkey

You hope it's sorted some of their set-up issues. But as Alan says, it still depends on the operator.

@Don Good Les Paul?

It's nice to see this price given the cherry-picked arguments we were having over the value-for-money of Tokais. This is what you pay retail for a factory model Gibson Les Paul in SA. R36,000. Frankly, I think it's absurd for a mass-produced guitar. Second hand, you'd struggle to get R18,000 for it the moment you walked out of the shop. It puts a R26,000 Tokai 1959 replica into perspective (just imagine what the Gibson Custom Shop equivalent would cost new in SA).

But really... :? I simply cannot imagine who would lay down that kind of money for a bog-standard Gibson LP.

As for the Epiphone. They may be made in the Chinese factory-of-the-week, but at least the prices are starting to look a little more rational. For myself I think tossing in a couple of grand extra and getting the specs and quality of a made-in-Japan Tokai makes sense but the Epiphone at that price isn't ridiculous.

Skywalker

Ok I'm going to be a bit biased here but I absolutely dig my Epi Zakk Wylde LP's.

I now own 3 of them (thanks Don for the 3rd ?) It's all down to the maple neck for me really. Although I've played a few Gibsons over the years and haven't picked up a Tokai yet these Epi's of mine just feel right. They sound lekker too. 2 of mine have Gibson Iommi pickups in them aswell and through my Marshalls they sound smoking 8)

At R36k for a "bog standard" Gibson LP I'd be scared of taking the guitar out of the studio :rolleyes:

singemonkey

Skywalker wrote: Ok I'm going to be a bit biased here but I absolutely dig my Epi Zakk Wylde LP's.

I now own 3 of them (thanks Don for the 3rd ?) It's all down to the maple neck for me really. Although I've played a few Gibsons over the years and haven't picked up a Tokai yet these Epi's of mine just feel right. They sound lekker too. 2 of mine have Gibson Iommi pickups in them aswell and through my Marshalls they sound smoking 8)

At R36k for a "bog standard" Gibson LP I'd be scared of taking the guitar out of the studio :rolleyes:

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Epiphones are bad, or that people don't have really smokin' ones. Just that some of the prices shops have charged for them in the past were not justified by their specs or average build quality.

And yes, that's my point. That Les Paul is absolutely bog standard. It should cost no more than R25,000 in the shop - and then only because it's carrying the Gibson name and has a flamed top. As people have pointed out, it's possible to get an R8 second hand for less than R30K. R36,000 for a guitar that's barely been touched by human hands in the manufacturing process is just ridiculous IMO.

Skywalker

Just that some of the prices shops have charged for them in the past were not justified by their specs or average build quality.

I couldn't agree with you more.

There are definately some bargain 2nd hand deals out there too. You've just got to look for them.

DonovanB

the Gibson at Marshall Durban is Sold. Went for R24k with the case.

remember buying a guitar should be about how it makes you feel as well. If you play it and feel like a rock star and have the bucks to do it then I say buy it.

If you are feeling sensible and think your money could be better spent then the guitar is not for you, no matter the brand. It clearly hasn't spoken to you.

Banditman

The reason it's such a heavy LP is because it's non weight-relieved, hence the "Traditional" moniker. A lot of players had been bemoaning the "swiss cheese" Les Pauls and wanted a return to the old days without paying Reissue prices. Throw in the '57 'buckers & there you go - cheap way to get a Pearly Gates this side of 60 grand. A vintageish spec Les Paul for Standard money.

It's rather ironic that Tokai have been making them this way for years.

There are times that Gibson can really get confusing with its lineup changes. IIRC the Traditional was originally either a bit pricier than the Standard OR on a par, with the Classic positioned between them & the Studio. Since they brought out the 2008 Standard (to replace the Standard) they've dropped the Classic, with the Traditional now filling that void. Confused yet?

As a short p.s. a nice Gibson-headstocked way into LP Custom turf for less money was the Classic Custom. They only made it for about two years: black, aged binding, '57s (or P90s in a short run) and then dropped it quietly. I was very interested in one myself for the combination of pickups, price and (I know it's sad) looks.

singemonkey

By producing a solid backed LP in their factory line up (presumably with a long neck tenon), Gibson has finally accepted a lot of criticisms from traditionalists who cannot afford a custom shop model. That's good.

I also think that that final price for the guitar is not too terrible at all. So kudos to them on that.

singemonkey

Ok right. The Traditional is weight relieved, as is the traditional pro. Furthermore, new Traditionals come with 2 piece backs like low end MIJ Tokais (which are not weight relieved though).

http://www2.gibson.com/Products/Electric-Guitars/Les-Paul/Gibson-USA/Les-Paul-Traditional-Pro.aspx

This guitar is exactly equivalent to this one:

http://www1.odn.ne.jp/tokaigakki/products/vintage/ls92.html

Except that the Gibson is weight relieved (although not everyone wants their LPs lighter than a Strat) has a nitro finish and comes with a case. That's what you get for a R15,000 price difference. Also a Gibson logo on the headstock.

Ah'm just a-sayin' ?

Ok, I will admit that the Traditional - not the Traditional Pro (who can keep up?) has a flamed top and Classic '57 hums. Here they say it's a one... or two piece body - which I take to mean that they've switched them to two pieces recently.

So I think that, at least in SA, Gibsons remain terribly overpriced, with the name contributing nearly half of the cost of the guitar.

AlanRatcliffe

Ja, ya, ya(da)...

Seeing as you've raised it again, I'm compelled to mention that the Gibbys are also much better investments.

DonovanB

Alan Ratcliffe wrote:

If thats a male horse I can see why it's dead...

singemonkey

Alan Ratcliffe wrote: Ja, ya, ya(da)...

Seeing as you've raised it again, I'm compelled to mention that the Gibbys are also much better investments.

How's that?

An early '90s LP Standard goes for about R14,000 mostly. And I've seen them for less. If the price drops off from the store price and then stays constant, is the Gibson a better investment because it starts from a higher retail price, drops by nearly 50% than a Tokai that starts at a lower retail price and then drops by nearly 50%?

Sounds to me like a lot of this "better investment" stuff simply means that a second hand Gibson costs more than a second hand Tokai. But it also started off way more expensive.

Given the range of models, I doubt that a Les Paul with a two piece back is going to be considered a coveted classic in ten years time.

vic

singemonkey wrote:
Alan Ratcliffe wrote: Ja, ya, ya(da)...

Seeing as you've raised it again, I'm compelled to mention that the Gibbys are also much better investments.
How's that?

An early '90s LP Standard goes for about R14,000 mostly. And I've seen them for less. If the price drops off from the store price and then stays constant, is the Gibson a better investment because it starts from a higher retail price, drops by nearly 50% than a Tokai that starts at a lower retail price and then drops by nearly 50%?

Sounds to me like a lot of this "better investment" stuff simply means that a second hand Gibson costs more than a second hand Tokai. But it also started off way more expensive.

Given the range of models, I doubt that a Les Paul with a two piece back is going to be considered a coveted classic in ten years time.

Ito investment...bought a 1. LP Custom new for R11500 (discount) in early 1999 and sold it for R18000 in 2008 (56% increase, but not in real terms of course).
2.an SG Std in London for R9000 (2nd hand) and sold for R13000 the next year in SA (2009)
3. a Beat up LP Custom ('83 model) for R5000 in 1997 and sold it for R14000 in (2006). This is not to brag or anything....simply to illustrate Alan's point.
It depends a lot on the model you buy...also never buy new. I reckon R36000 for that LP Trad above is way too much. (there are currently a few Std's on the market for around R20k)

vic

singemonkey wrote:
Alan Ratcliffe wrote: Ja, ya, ya(da)...

Seeing as you've raised it again, I'm compelled to mention that the Gibbys are also much better investments.
How's that?

An early '90s LP Standard goes for about R14,000 mostly. And I've seen them for less. If the price drops off from the store price and then stays constant, is the Gibson a better investment because it starts from a higher retail price, drops by nearly 50% than a Tokai that starts at a lower retail price and then drops by nearly 50%?
Sounds to me like a lot of this "better investment" stuff simply means that a second hand Gibson costs more than a second hand Tokai. But it also started off way more expensive.
Given the range of models, I doubt that a Les Paul with a two piece back is going to be considered a coveted classic in ten years time.

Remember Singe those early 90's LP Stds cost around R5000 at the time

Tokai-SA

I think the "investment" story is what we tell our wives when she complains about another guitar we bought...if I want to make an investment I'll head on down to Cape Town and buy an apartment in Camps Bay or Clifton. ?

With respect.
In that 10 years you hang onto the guitar to make a few thousand Rand, how many times did you pay for setups, new pickups, strings, etc, etc...add that all up and it wasn't much of an investment....besides, the name on the headstock is slowly becoming less and less relevant as the Asians take over the worlds guitar production.

Unfortunately that's all I can say without breaking the rules, so I'll watch the rugby now...don't worry, we'll win it. ?