EPIPHONE Guitars: The good, the bad and the not so ugly??

ZarK · 2010-07-07T11:56:39+00:00

In my quest for some decent budget guitars to be used for alternate tunings only, I have considered many. One brand that stuck in my mind over the years is E...

EPIPHONE Guitars: The good, the bad and the not so ugly??

singemonkey

killafo wrote: Fair enough.

I have an EPI LP standard second hand....paid R4,500 for it, beautiful burst.

That's what I thought. And it's why, if the Epi standards are going for only R500 less new, it's a really good deal.

My '93 Gibson LP standard second hand picked that up for R14,500....yes it is original, made in USA with original case. So its not far fetched. Learn to bargain!!!

I fully agree. On Gumtree, LP Standards tend to go for under R20K. And R15K would be a good price to pay for one.

As far as the Tokai, went to Marshall Music here in Hillcrest LP standard was R9k. So prices may vary from where you live i guess.

True. And this is a very good price for the low-end of the made-in-Japan Tokai models which are built to specs that rival Gibson factory models like your LP Standard. Their Made-in-China range is more of a rival for Epiphone and should retail for less. Still, I would expect the average sticker price of an MIJ Tokai to be higher than that, unless all the stores are reducing their sticker prices to more reasonable levels.

To clarify this issue (because I have an interest in Tokais and it is relevant to this discussion), you can easily tell new MIJ from MIC Tokais. The MIJ's have a two-screw truss-rod cover, while the MIC's have a three screw cover. Obviously if you're buying second-hand someone could have changed the TRC and you have to do further investigations.

vic

ZarK wrote:
singemonkey wrote:
Donovan Banks wrote: It bodes well for discussions as well, every time someone mentions Gibson or Epiphone lately the discussion goes in one direction.
If Epi LP's are really going for R5K, that's very cheap. I've consistently seen them going second hand for that money. They've certainly been seen going for a lot more recently (way to much imo), so perhaps the second hand market was eating their sales. Now if only they'd bring all local guitars down to reasonable prices.
?

A Gibson will always be a Gibson... No matter how long or clever the debate... You just have to decide if they are value-for-money to you. If you're buying a "copy" but really lust for the real thing, you'll probably never be satisfied untill you get the real thing, so you might as well start saving... I'll be happy with 90% of an authentic Les Paul's tone at 25-35% of their cost. -if thats at all possible. It would be epic if I could do that with a pimped epi! I should know soon enough... ?

Wise words Zark... :? Ito of getting the Les Paul tone...you should of course have the right amplification as well...Don't think you'll get that tone from a 1*5 5 watter. ?

ZarK

killafo wrote: Honestly a well build EPI with a set neck and a change of pick ups would get you more than half way there to a gibson, but like you say a Gibson is a Gibson and an Epi is an Epi. Good luck with your buy!!! Post picz or it didn't happen, ?

Fair enough! LOL :goodtimes:

I've had A Gibson LP before. I'll probably have at least one again in the future. I have to try an Epi for myself...

singemonkey

ZarK wrote: A Gibson will always be a Gibson... No matter how long or clever the debate... You just have to decide if they are value-for-money to you. If you're buying a "copy" but really lust for the real thing, you'll probably never be satisfied untill you get the real thing, so you might as well start saving... I'll be happy with 90% of an authentic Les Paul's tone at 25-35% of their cost. -if thats at all possible. It would be epic if I could do that with a pimped epi! I should know soon enough... ?

Sure sure. Even that Jimmy Hendrix Gibson strat will continue to be a Gibson ?. I won't get into this again here in case we hear cries of persecution. For some people the guitar isn't the guitar if it doesn't have the originator's mark on it. People who consider an Epiphone original extend the notion of the company's ownership to the guitar - mark or not. I get it.

For others, the guitar isn't the guitar if it's not built the way it was originally. Some people just want the best bang for buck no matter who, or how faithful to the original concept it is. Different strokes.

But please. Tokais are relevant to buying a Les Paul. Secondly, there are probably many people who would feel the way I do about the issue but who don't know about their existence - and so it's relevant to bring up and I will continue to do so. I prefer Tokais to Agiles, and yet I wouldn't imply that someone mentioning Agiles in a discussion of Les Paul copies was trying to derail the discussion. In terms of Les Paul GAS, not everyone assumes non-Gibson owned products don't qualify.

vic

Zark's intention is to upgrade an Epi to sound like a real Les Paul.....if I 'm correct? He sees it as a project so to speak.

ZarK

vic wrote: Zark's intention is to upgrade an Epi to sound like a real Les Paul.....if I 'm correct? He sees it as a project so to speak.

Absolutely correct.

I've been part of similar debates in the past and the only way for me to reach a real conclusion is to just do it and see/hear for myself. I am open to Tokais as brand as well -as I am to most other brands. I played one at Bothners a while back. Excellent fit, finish and playability I must ad, but still double the price of an Epi and very much a brilliant "copy" where an epi is more of a stand alone guitar imo. (By brilliant copy I mean to say the R10k Tokai I played had a better fit and finish than my R30k Gibson albeit without the R20k logo that's worth even more than that to many, many people. I don't think you can formulate a price for MOJO...)

I’d like to see once and for all how little I can spend to get a Les Paul sounding like the real deal. When we listen to the recording I'd like a pro to murmur: That's a Les Paul, no doubt. If I can achieve this at 25% of the original's price, I'll probably change a few of my own opinions…

doncorleone

IDK about you, but i would recommend Squire Strat. Love the tone. Still SOunds like a Fender

Bob-Dubery

doncorleone wrote: IDK about you, but i would recommend Squire Strat. Love the tone. Still SOunds like a Fender

It might be a very good instrument, but I wouldn't recommend it to somebody who is thinking Les Paulish thoughts.

doncorleone

oops. was he, then? ok, epiphone is good!

Tokai-SA

What does a "good" Les Paul sound like?

How does one establish what a good Les Paul sounds like?

Bob-Dubery

There are instances of great sounding Les Pauls that turned out to not be standard and thus not typical of the Les Paul sound and certainly not sounding the way they were intended to sound and the way they sounded when they left the factory. EG Peter Green's Les Paul.

Oh... I'm not picking on Gibson here, it's just the obvious example to use following on from Lance's post. The same point can be made RE Fenders and any other brand. The fact that there are all those signature model Strats shows that at the very least some Strats are more equal than others.

MikeM

Oh I love Slash's GIBSON :?

(That throw a wrench in the works? ?)

vic

Tokai SA wrote: What does a "good" Les Paul sounds like?

How does one establish what a good Les Paul sounds like?

It's all in the wrist... er... ear ? And then there's the influence of the amp as well. What sounds good to me could sound not-so-good to others.
I fondly remember Pete Clifford's (Bats) Les Paul tone in the early 70's....wow...and it was a LP of about the same year/s (the bad years for Gibson). The tone is in the hand of the player...

Tokai-SA

Vic

You know what a great Les Paul sounds like, and how a great Les Paul 'plays'...because you own some of the best.

My question is, how do other people know?

killafo

I think the main reason anyone wants a Gibson is to sound like the players they aspire to be.

When i got mine i was going through a Slash, Page phase so i figured it was the way to go. Also aesthetically, it really attracts my viewing balls(hehehe i said balls in a good context). Another thing is, i picked up a Fender and weight wise it just didn't feel right, but my Gibson felt perfect. I like the heavier guitars, i connect more with them *shrug*

So just to get back to how do other people know what a good Gibson feels like, i suppose its a bit subjective and a bit of your brain and soul telling you......"Hey, this feels awesome!!!!"

Just my 2 cents.

chris77

Hmmm... Ja toughie Lance. My favourite lp tones are Page (modded his), Knopfler's Brothers in arms (no idea what he did there, but it wasn't just lp into amp) Slash (turns out he played a copy lp on AFD.) and AC/DC (found out later that an SG is Not a model in the lp range but an entirely different beast all together. Felt stupid for a while, but ja. I was young and ignorant) So it really is a good question. And yes, some folks want the same guitars their heroes play to sound like them. I dont. I want some of them because I am a sucker for the history and signifigance of these instruments. Yes, much is hype and marketing, but it doesnt dampen my enthusiasm at all. In a sense we all know R28 for a movie ticket and R30 for a popcorn and coke is a rip-off, but watching a movie in a theatre has that something that DVD's at home just don't. Same with guitars for me.

singemonkey

I also picked up my Les Paul because of Jimmy Page. Unfortunately, my '83 Deluxe was never going to sound like Jimmy Page's '50s standard. It just doesn't have that resonance. As time went on that became important to me.

It wasn't a big loss though, because I put great P90 pickups in that guitar and it has a wonderful sound - much more like Pete Townsend on Live at Leeds. I'm converting it into a rockabilly guitar. It has a great "thonk" for that. Great guitar, but it wasn't that much like Jimmy Page's LP, even though it was the right shape and had the right logo on it. Also, if that skinny little junky page had had to wear my LP every night in the '70s, you'd know it because he'd be walking with a stick. ???

I've got another Les Paul now that has that Jimmy Page/Clapton Bluesbreakers resonance, sound, weight. It wasn't a Gibson, because I couldn't have afforded a Les Paul like that from Gibson. Also, I have issues with the companies way of doing business. But that's my own lookout.

My point is that a Les Paul is not a Les Paul is not a Les Paul. You can get wonderful tones from a huge variety of LPs, but to get that tone of the '50s ones, they have to be made like the '50s ones. Many people would prefer other tones. If your fave tone, comes from a '70s LP, the "woodiness" of a '50s style LP would take you away from that tone. If you're a Zak Wylde fan, for example. His LPs are from the early '80s or the '70s I guess. Or Randy Rhoads.

vic

Tokai SA wrote: Vic

You know what a great Les Paul sounds like, and how a great Les Paul 'plays'...because you own some of the best.

My question is, how do other people know?

What we should realise is that Gibson Les Pauls sound different from one another (I use vintage Vox AC30's which also differ slightly soundwise from one another). Thus amplification (and effects) also have a huge influence on the sound that we hear. I'm also convinced that apart from wood densities, the neck sizes in these guitars may also have an effect.
So to take any Les Paul type guitar, say an Epi as in this case, and try to mod it to sound like a "Gibson Les Paul" is somewhat of a shot in the dark. Swopping out the Epi PUPS for the "PAFS" currently used in Customshop Les Pauls should bring about a difference, but it's NO guarantee that you'll end up with a "real Les Paul sound or tone" because there is no benchmark. This is so damn hard to explain.....it's a very subjective topic...thus so many opinions and preferences.
My ex-SG for example sounded (a lot) different from my '57 Goldtop, yet both had so-called classic '57 HB's.
But what all Les Pauls have in common (at least those that I own/ed) are excellent note separation (even at high volumes), full and rich mids and a rounded creamy treble response....
Does this make any sense...? ?

Bob-Dubery

killafo wrote: I think the main reason anyone wants a Gibson is to sound like the players they aspire to be.

Clearly you're too young (right now) to understand about mid-life crisis, or the need to compensate for greying and/or vanishing hair.

Enjoy it. It won't last.

Tokai-SA

vic wrote:
Tokai SA wrote: Vic

You know what a great Les Paul sounds like, and how a great Les Paul 'plays'...because you own some of the best.

My question is, how do other people know?

So to take any Les Paul type guitar, say an Epi as in this case, and try to mod it to sound like a "Gibson Les Paul" is somewhat of a shot in the dark. Swopping out the Epi PUPS for the "PAFS" currently used in Customshop Les Pauls should bring about a difference, but it's NO guarantee that you'll end up with a "real Les Paul sound or tone"

There you go, that's my point.

Killafo, singemonkey and yourself own Gibson Les Pauls, you know what they sound like...so if you guys play a lower priced version of one you can hear and feel whether it's like a good Gibson or not.

On the other hand, if someone's intention is to only get a "kind of Les Paulish" recorded tone, then by all means buy the cheapest copy you can find.