any idea's on wood used on my recent pawn shop find.........

Keira-WitherKay

yesterday i saw Bob at hospital where i teach vincent , and i was wingeing to him that i won't be buying the murray kuun guitar cos i find the action way too higfh still......... and nothing short of major work can alter it........... then on my way back to northcliff i stopped off at campus square mall's cash crusaders .....and then almost like it was sent to brighten my day after deciding to leave the murray kuun guitar i find and old obviously 2nd hand spanish made nylon ..bought it on the spot .........

yeah then i was round at Bob's place in the afternoon and we tried to see what this guitar was about ..........

it's an odd instrument ...... the label says nothing more that "Menina BM" and "made in spain" my 1st reaction was that it was a cheap mass produced model but it was cheap and had a huge warm sound (which i like) so i bought it .expecting to find a laminated guitar ......... odd thing is i took a nail file and scraped a section of wood clear inside the soundhole ...where one ussually clearly see's the laminate clear of any laquer /polish and to our amazement it seems it's a solid top....definitely not a laminate ....

the red colour and grain looks very much like cedar but Bob thought it might be spruce cos the section i cleaned was very light/white in colour but to counter that i was later at Aja's house and he has a cedar top guitar which is very light ............ so help over this one if anyone has comment ........

also the idea of the guitar being a total cheapie was thrown by the fact that it has a light wood binding/inlay right around the top and back ..not plastic or just a black painted on line like most cheap guitars ......... so i reckon it was made with some effort ......

next Bob says the neck is mahogany for sure ..but we can't decide on the back and sides......... but Bob thought it was a solid back and sides.......

i'll post picks if anyone wants to comment

and lastly it has an odd neck joint ....(see photo) where there's a heel inside the guitar running along the back ............ my other classicals definitely do not have this..........

anyway so a mystical instrument and even more so when i googled it i only got 1 other hit someone who was selling one who said it was circa 1980 but no info to woods ect ....... so amazingly this is an informationless guitar ........

however it plays great has a fat wide neck which i love......... and a warm fat sound............ so this morning i changed the machine heads for a top line set machine heads and lowered the action and restrung it and it sounds and feels great ........all for R600 damn i love pawn shops........

but i'm keen to find out more not that it really matters cos the instrument sounds fabulous.........

below are some pics.......

the label

the close up of the wood binding around the top and back .also a look at the wood on the sides...the back is same wood ...any idea's what it is ?

a view of the back ..it's same wood as sides ....

full view of the back and the mystery wood

a look at the wierd heel inside the guitar that is part of the neck joint and runs to 1st brace along the back

thanks for the anticipated input ........ and yeah seems the pawn shop trawling is paying off.......... yet again ........

AlanRatcliffe

The finish is amber, which doesn't help, but I'd say the back and sides are mahogany. Unfinished mahogany also turns brownish like you see on the inside.

The top could be spruce, but being made in Spain, it's also possible it's flatsawn European sycamore (which is often used for back and sides of flamenca blanco guitars

Keira-WitherKay

thanks Alan, any input re that neck joint that has a heel that extends along the back of the guitar .........???

[deleted]

My first guess was a Mahogany back and sides, but the redness made me think otherwise....

the amber finish explains that :?

great find... I wouldn't mind finding one of these for a bargain, so next time you spot a decent one.... let me know! ?
I don't / cannot play nylon string... but I would still like a decent old one!

I am going to start visiting pawn shops... 8)

Keira-WitherKay

? brent we can make a deal , you let me know re all the nylons selling in wierd and wonderful places cheap and i'll let you know if i see any steel strings that look interesting ........... cos i recently saw a seagull (canadian made,also said handmade on label if i recall ) steel string for R1300 with factory LR baggs installed. but it sold before i could go back ..... so yeah lots of deals out there ........

IceCreamMan

Gotta say i have no idea on the guitar or anything but i do get wood at porn shops too ..

ok ok , sorry. :-[

Chris-Mason

Nice find well done. i have over the years found a few gems in pan shops as well. The best is finding the instrument, taking it home giving it a good clean and putting new strings on and the first time you play it you know whether it was the correct move.
the top looks like western Red Cedar, the heel joint from the photo looks similar to the one on my ramirez.
Saddle and Nut

blackie

Hello Keira,
It certainly is an interesting guitar. Menina BM is a brand that I've never heard of. In Spain however ,
there are literally hundreds of Luthiers, most of whom we'll never hear about.
One thing for certain though, is that there will be great Luthiers among them.
Regarding your questions:
1. The Top. Given that the wood is white, this is probably spruce. The vast majority of solid top Spanish
instruments were either made of Spruce or Red Cedar, which is a tight grained brown wood.
2. The Neck. This is almost certain to be Cedar, as are most Spanish built classical guitar necks.This could easily be mistaken visually for Mahogany.
3. Back and Sides. These look like Mahogany oversprayed with orange laquer.
4. Neck Joint " tongue". This is typical of Spanish designed instruments. It's purpose is to add
strength and stability to the neck structure.
Hope this helps!

Keira-WitherKay

great thanks for the input ........... and yeah if there's any more idea's keep em coming .........

singemonkey

Just that my student Alhambra (model 2C) is spec'd as having (and my investigations seem to confirm) a solid cedar top - which is more brown than this, rather than reddish. The neck on my Alhambra looks as sure as dammit like Mahogany - I know that wood well and I'd be surprised to find it was actually Cedar. The fretboard is also ebony rather than stained rosewood.

So I'm thinking that some pretty low-tier Spanish guitars are made with reasonably high-end materials.

Gearhead

I happen to also not think it is a Cedar neck, looks very much like Mahogany to me. And the back and sides.
I wouldn't be too curious about the doubler between the heel and the first brace - you might even find that the neck bracing in the top is less than normal. Is it?

Keira-WitherKay

thanks again for the input guys.

should be interesting cos on sunday i'm going to see a friend of mine who also has a spanish made classical she bought 20 yrs ago in spain, from a small manufacturer who were in fact a family who ran a small workshop turning out guitars for last who knows how many years ...(i forget the name of the family) and when i last played it i recall it had a very similar feel to the one i have now....... as in neck profile. but i will compare the woods ect on sunday ......

i would guess this guitar i have is also at least 30 years old if not older , this is based on the ageing to the label and the light wood binding looks aged too ..... also the state of the old machine heads which i have removed.......... they were totally yellowed and aged even the metal was rusted up ...... well i think it's rust ...... also the only reference on the net is for someone selling one of these and they said it was from 1980

Bob-Dubery

I'd erred in thinking that cedar was a redder wood than spruce. Well the often used "western red cedar" is, but cedars are not all the same colour wise.

Alaskan yellow cedar

Western red cedar

Gearhead

In both cases, clear straight grain of narrower dark winters and wider light summers- something Mahogany does not have. Neither does Keira's pawn shop find.

Bob-Dubery

Gearhead wrote: In both cases, clear straight grain of narrower dark winters and wider light summers- something Mahogany does not have. Neither does Keira's pawn shop find.

I was thinking of the tops, not the necks. Keira scraped a small area of finish off and the wood underneath was almost white in colour. But it's clear now that cedar doesn't have to have a reddish tinge.

singemonkey

Could still be western red cedar, I think. The top of my guitar is much darker than the example you show. It could be age or the finish. So in contrast, the bit Keira scraped away might be white - even if it's actually a very pale brown - in contrast to the top?

Keira-WitherKay

well the top definitely has a distinct straight grain of dark lines that cover the entire top , (unfortunately not visible in pics) and to my eyes, who has seen many cedar tops...... would put my bet on the top being cedar because of this look of grain....

but the piece i cleared the tint off the top is definitely almost white.....

so that would suggest spruce, or as Bob posted a lighter alaskan cedar( which is about the colour of the scraped off piece ) but definitely not red cedar .....anyway the wood is just for interest sake.. the guitar really has great tone now that the new strings have settled .so regardless of even if it's made outa pine ? it sounds great and no complaints from a playability side......

now this is my first spanish built guitar find in a pawn shop ..... so very exciting. maybe i'll be lucky to find that ramirez that was converted into a lamp in my future travels....... and pay R500 for it ...... ?

AlanRatcliffe

It probably is spruce then. Spruce is white when fresh cut.

Bob-Dubery

Keira WitherKay wrote: well the top definitely has a distinct straight grain of dark lines that cover the entire top , (unfortunately not visible in pics) and to my eyes, who has seen many cedar tops...... would put my bet on the top being cedar because of this look of grain....

but the piece i cleared the tint off the top is definitely almost white.....

so that would suggest spruce, or as Bob posted a lighter alaskan cedar( which is about the colour of the scraped off piece ) but definitely not red cedar .....

There's many cedars. More than just those two and certainly not all the same colour or the same two colours.

Spruce and Cedar have pretty similar grains.

now this is my first spanish built guitar find in a pawn shop ..... so very exciting. maybe i'll be lucky to find that ramirez that was converted into a lamp in my future travels....... and pay R500 for it ...... ?

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but the label says "made in Spain". Well haven't you heard? There's a little village in Viet Nam that has been named "Spain". "Spain" is also the name of an industrial suburb in South Korea.

Keira-WitherKay

X-rated Bob wrote:
Keira WitherKay wrote:

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but the label says "made in Spain". Well haven't you heard? There's a little village in Viet Nam that has been named "Spain". "Spain" is also the name of an industrial suburb in South Korea.

? well now i know..... hehehehhehe wow sure makes labels hard to understand in future...... but hey the instrument sounds good and at the price i paid it could be made in korea ......long as it sounds good.......i will be using it to play on live not collecting it