ZarK
Hi Guys
Thanks to a few factors including my new guitars, karma and the inspiration I've received through Guitar Forum and it's members, it looks like I'm in a band again!! (It's been nearly 12 years since the last...)
We're aiming for orignal music to the tune of Alter Bridge, Breaking Benjamin, Pappa Roach, 30 seconds to Mars etc. etc. Due to my old school metal background I hope to put a twist on things to have a modern sound/vibe with maybe some flashbacks to the music that inspired me before these bands...
The Question:
A lot of these bands use drop tuning and variations of it -which I am unfamiliar with and will have to catch up on. The problem is that I only have Ibani with floyd trems and therefore I do not wish to keep retuning them. I would probably need one or two extra guitars that are permanently detuned...
1. Which specific guitars do you think lends themselves to detuning the best? (As much as I love quality instruments, I would prefer the least expensive instruments that will do the job well. I'll probably just fit a pro quality pup in the bridge at least...)
2. I'll consider from dirt cheap to more expensive detuned guitars. (The latter only later if the band goes anywhere.)
3. What are your thoughts on 7 strings and baritone guitars for this application vs. standard detuned guitars?
4. Most important features would be bass tone, good intonation and most imortantly: tuning stability...
I throw myself upon the mercy of the experienced in this regard!
Thanks for any and all input!
Kind Regards. ?
zohn
Zark
Since you mentioned Baritone guitars you probably know the main ingredient of the formula already namely scale length.
Longer scale and heavier strings are pretty much it. The question is where is the magic golden line of compromise with standard scale lengths and which specific guitars...
I have a standard scale (25,5 inch) 12-fret dreadnaught which is simply stunning in a dropped D tuning. I have read somewhere else that another owner of the same guitar takes it way down to B with heavier strings, I haven't gone that far myself though and don't think I ever will. Further down would definitely be true Baritone territory (27 inches).
What I know about electrics is very limited, but I do know that Fender's Jaguar is a long scaled Baritone model.
Oh, and Mervyn Davis builds Smooth talkers (acoustic guitars) in Baritone scale as well if you fancy those and you're interested...
Bob-Dubery
7 String and baritone guitars might not solve the puzzle for you. They will give you an extended range of notes, but there's more to slack key tunings than that. They open up different shapes and different sounds to you. Listen to Led Zeppelin's "Rain Song", then try to play it on a standard tuned guitar. You might get close, but to get the effect that Page does you'll have to use a different tuning (I think that's either in open-D or DADGAD).
As already stated a longer scale length helps. The strings have more tension for the same pitch on a longer-scale and will thus hold a lower tuning better.
If you want to play lower but with the same chord shapes as a regular tuned guitar then a baritone comes into play. Or you could tune the whole thing down, but there may be issues with this as the strings may not be at correct tension tuned that far flat and so the neck may need adjusting.
It may be an idea to have a guitar set aside for such tunings. I would think that if you are using a tremolo then things may get tricky, especially if you want to change tunings during a set.
singemonkey
For my two cents it's not a big mystery. Just use a Strat scale-length (an Ibanez) and put a heavier low E string on it than you'd normally use - like by two steps or so. You'd have to mess with the action a bit and the set up of the Floyd Rose, but then you just keep that guitar aside for all your drop D stuff. The extra tension on that string would give it the clarity and definition it might otherwise lose had it simply been the standard gauge tuned down, I imagine.
dee
All of those bands you mentioned use standard scale length guitars tuned down to D or C, no baritones or anything strange. You don't "have to have" a 7-string or baritone. Toni Iomi used to downtune his Gibson SG to C.
The real issue I believe is tuning stability, and you definitely want to upgrade to a set of locking tuners if it does not have any. Some heavy gauge strings would also be advised.
You have two Ibanez guitars. Maybe now is the time to have one set up as a downtuned guitar...
singemonkey
dee wrote:
All of those bands you mentioned use standard scale length guitars tuned down to D or C, no baritones or anything strange. You don't "have to have" a 7-string or baritone. Toni Iomi used to downtune his Gibson SG to C.
The real issue I believe is tuning stability, and you definitely want to upgrade to a set of locking tuners if it does not have any. Some heavy gauge strings would also be advised.
You have two Ibanez guitars. Maybe now is the time to have one set up as a downtuned guitar...
Yeah. Cos Tony Iomi's tone suffered from the combination of down-tuning and light strings on a Gibson scale-length (for his mangled fingers). It did make his guitar sound sludgy, so I really recommend you put a heavier string on that low D.
Banditman
zohn wrote:
What I know about electrics is very limited, but I do know that Fender's Jaguar is a long scaled Baritone model.
There are a variety of Jag models out there in the American Vintage, Classic Player, Special Edition & Japanese ranges, but only one is a baritone model - the Jaguar Baritone Special Edition HH. It's got the same basic looks as the Special Edition HH (only available in black with chrome hardware) but has fewer controls & the 27" scale length.
Explorerlover
The Mick Thompson Ibanez handled drop tuning well, but it's fixed bridge
inflames
The Mick Thompson Ibanez handled drop tuning well, but it's fixed bridge
I have always trusted fixed bridge guitars more for metal and drop tuning.
Jackson guitars love drop tuning ?
ZarK
@All: Thanks for all the input! Please keep it coming!
@XBob: "slack key tuning" LOL! Don't mind if I use that term from now on? ;D
We're not using any drop D tuning thus far. All tunings are alternate. (I've found my limited and recent dealings with alternate tunings very inspirational!) -an easy way to open your mind to new creativity.
After consideration, I think I'll use my j.custom for standard tuning and bring my Jem back from retirement for a third time. (She just keeps going and going...) Jem will be tuned to: C G D# A# F A#. (I have a friends backup Cort tuned to this at the mo with 10 gauge and our lead singer’s PRS copy tuned to B with 12 gauge strings and the Cort's strings actually feel less like spaghetti... Strange... It seems like I would have to experiment with different gauges on different guitars to find the heaviest gauge that I can still vibrato with control for the specific guitar.
When all thats done, I'll still need one more guitar (for now) to be tuned to: D D A D A D (Seems strange, but that’s what the tabs state...) Now I'm considering using my other j.custom for this, but as she's up for sale and unplayed, I probably shouldn't... (But then I'm sure if I play her first, I'd be more open to some of the offers I've received... in two minds, though...)
What other "decent cheaper" guitars would you guys recommend I take a look at. [I'm not considering either Gibson or Fender at all for our tipe of music. (Excluding maybe an Explorer) I think I'll stick with 25.5 scale length. Been thinking of guitars such as PRS SE, ESP LTD and even Cort or std Ibanez RG, RGA or RGD with 26.5 scale or similar instruments. I would prefer to go Mahogany body for lower tuning... I think? I'll probably also replace the bridge pup with a pro pup if the guitars going to be a cheap example.
'
Any more thoughts/replies and/or recommendations will be much appreciated! Any specific guitars I should look at?
We're going to play a few covers first to see if we gel and can get things tight. If this is successful, we'll start focusing on original music and then I'll consider a Baritone and/or 7 string for own creations...
Kind Regards.
tentop
There's the brilliant PRS SE Mike Mushok Signature Baritone:
http://www.prsguitars.com/mushok/index.php
On the dirt-cheap end of the scale, my RGR321EX that I sold the other day was super-stable with alternate tunings.
That PRS is a beauty:
shaundtsl
ZarK wrote:
then I'll consider a Baritone and/or 7 string for own creations...
Hey ZarK, when you consider a 7 string, please let me know, I have an Ibanez RG7321 with hard case in tip top condition which I would like to trade for a 6 string of similar value. I dont really play the 7 string as much any more.
ZarK
The Mick Thompson Ibanez will fit the bill. I'm also impressed spec wise by the latest PRS SE Signature models. Many have Mahogany bodies and EMG pups and one even has a floyed Rose with locking nuts... Just need to compare prices to see if they're value for moaney...
ZarK
shaundtsl wrote:
ZarK wrote:
then I'll consider a Baritone and/or 7 string for own creations...
Hey ZarK, when you consider a 7 string, please let me know, I have an Ibanez RG7321 with hard case in tip top condition which I would like to trade for a 6 string of similar value. I dont really play the 7 string as much any more.
Thanx. Will do...
Explorerlover
ZarK wrote:
The Mick Thompson Ibanez will fit the bill. I'm also impressed spec wise by the latest PRS SE Signature models. Many have Mahogany bodies and EMG pups and one even has a floyed Rose with locking nuts... Just need to compare prices to see if they're value for moaney...
There's one of em for sale in the classifieds section
andrewjbryson
Zark - Have you played a Ibanez RGA Prestige yet?
If you check on youtube a lot of metalheads use them for their solid tone and no hassle bridge.
Fixed bridge Gibraltor Plus brige. Tune down to a B or C tuning. No hassles. Stays in tune.
Funnily enough the reason i love the RGA so much is due to the neck and its massive Gibraltar bridge , but for 2010, they
have introduced the Edge-Zero bridge w/ZPS3 on them.
ZarK
I haven't yet. I'll take your word that they're good! I'd like to spend as little as possible as these guitars will only be used for certain songs with alternate tuning. I'll check out the less expensive RGA's, though. These guitars won't replace my main guitars, they just need to have half decent tone, good playability and most importantly: tuning stability. I'll probably go for a fixed bridge as all my electrics have floyed rose's...
AlanRatcliffe
Fixed bridge is a good idea. Through neck is nice for downtuning too - the lowest notes always seem to hang together better without flubbing out. ESP maybe? I've seen some of their models that fit the bill and quite attractively priced.
ZarK
Thanks again for the input. I'm going to check out some ESP LTD's and PRS SE's out tomorrow when I pick up a few packs of 12 gauge... I'll also see what else is available...
ZarK
So far the PRS SE Mark Tremonti and Paul Allender have most of my attention. Solid Guitars at low prices....
Any other suggestions are welcomed! ?
