overlapping frequencies = unwanted sounds?

rollotomasi

Hey folks, I'm somewhat new to recording, and after looking at some of the Recording 101 threads I'm still not sure how to describe my problem exactly...perhaps I just lack the right terminology. Anyway, I'll do the best I can: I finished recording a new song, with 2 heavy gain guitar tracks panned hard L/R and 1 heavy gain guitar panned Center. My problem is that the Center guitar creates a certain wonkiness where the frequencies overlap with the other 2 guitars--the "wonkiness" sounds somewhat like a more subtle flange effect, and I'd really like to eliminate it if I can. I can recreate the problem by taking any single track and pasting an exact duplicate directly on top of the original.

Does this make any sense? If not, maybe I can post a sound sample of the problem (if this site allows). If so, any suggestions would be helpful.
Thanks.

Gearhead

I think what you describe would be a phase problem (two notes of identical tone and volume can add but if you flip the phase, cancel each other out). The subtle phase effect then is a phase effect, quite possibly the guitars in the different recordings were slightly different tuning / left hand pinch. Flipping the phase will not help in that case.
One solution would be to dip the offending frequency on any of the two tracks.

Manfred-Klose

My problem is that the Center guitar creates a certain wonkiness where the frequencies overlap with the other 2 guitars--the "wonkiness" sounds somewhat like a more subtle flange effect

the wonders of Phase.

Do you record bass guitar, and have a drum track as well?
Sometimes less is more, only put the guitar parts in the mix that needs to be in, otherwise it will start sounding muddy.

Try this experiment, pan the guitar left(not far left, maby about 75 on the meter) and duplicate that track and pan 75 to the right speaker, but give the guitar on the right side a time delay of between 20ms - 35ms, this will phycho acoustically broaden your guitar sound, dont put it in center, that is reserved for vocals,bass, kick drum.

Once you have done that, EQ the left and right speaker differently.
Start by taking out frequencies under 500hz in the guitar signal(It depends on what genre you are doing, so experiment until you find something that works).
Try not to boost frequencies, first take out all the bad ones, and only if you need to boost the good frequencies where the guitar signal is strong at.

And also watchout to not record your guitar with too much distortion, you would be needing clarity to make the guitars stand out in the mix.

Post a sample, it should just be you own composition.

AlanRatcliffe

Hmm.. phasing and flanging need two identical signals and a delay, so unless you are cloning tracks and somehow not time aligning them properly, my money is on tuning.

Always make sure to tune to the same tuner in studio - some cheaper ones are off from day one and even the best slip out of calibration over the years. Even if the guitars were tuned to the same tuner, it could still be a tuning issue - sometimes heavier players on guitars with Floyd Rose trems play too hard and unintentionally flatten/warble everything they do.

DonovanB

I reckon you've added way too much heavy guitar.
Having 2 guitars each panned left and right give a great tone, take out that third and try there.
What I like to do is use slightly different tones for left and right.

My Rule for recording is tune before take. ALWAYS tune before each take. It sounds excessive but it is very necessary.

6x9base13

Alan Ratcliffe wrote Always make sure to tune to the same tuner in studio - some cheaper ones are off from day one and even the best slip out of calibration over the years. Even if the guitars were tuned to the same tuner, it could still be a tuning issue - sometimes heavier players on guitars with Floyd Rose trems play too hard and unintentionally flatten/warble everything they do.

OT - When the experts are done with the OP, please help with a q around these statements. Are we saying electronic tuners with electrical inputs (jack) inputs are "unreliable" / variable ?

DonovanB

They may be. It might tune to E, but may be a hew Hz out. which will make your recording sound odd.

Also if the battery in one is going they aren't very useful. Imagine trying to do math when you are falling asleep?

Recording is very different to live performances as the room acoustics may help hide inaccuracies, but when in digital form and in a well treated room, you can hear a lot more that is wrong.

Bob-Dubery

Donovan Banks wrote I reckon you've added way too much heavy guitar.
Having 2 guitars each panned left and right give a great tone, take out that third and try there.
What I like to do is use slightly different tones for left and right.

My Rule for recording is tune before take. ALWAYS tune before each take. It sounds excessive but it is very necessary.

And check the tuners.

A friend of mine recently ran into wierdness in the studio. This was tracked down to tuning, but his tuner showed that he was spot on. Then they checked the tuner and found it was set to A=438Hz instead of the default A=440.

AlanRatcliffe

6x9base13 wrote Are we saying electronic tuners with electrical inputs (jack) inputs are "unreliable" / variable ?

Far better than a pitch pipe, but not quite as good as a tuning fork. ? To some degree you get what you pay for. A cheap tuner may often be a few cent out. Any electrical device will have a tolerance, tighter tolerances are possible, but cost more to make (take a look at the top-of-the-line, laboratory-grade Petersen strobe tuner). Over the years component values will drift slightly (although somehow I suspect this is lower these days than ever), and some may drift one way while others drift the other. I used to get my Boss TU-12H recalibrated every few years, but it never drifted far.

To put this into perspective, the normal person's ear can only hear a difference of three cent or more, and most decent electronic tuners are within +/-1 cent of accuracy (good enough for rock 'n roll!). Not a problem as long as there isn't a second tuner being used for other instruments which is out a few cent out in the other direction. The Peterson 590 has an accuracy of 0.1 cent. A guitar has an intonation variance of +4/-1 cent anyway, so if you have perfect or strong relative pitch, you probably wouldn't be playing a guitar anyway. ?

All in all, tuners (even cheap ones) have made a huge difference to our lives (some of us remember the chaos before they existed) and generally, guitarists are more in tune now than ever before. The only downside I've noticed is that people now rarely learn to hear small tuning issues as they play, as their ears are not being trained by hours of manual tuning.

rollotomasi

Thank you so much guys, particularly Manfred Klose and Alan Ratcliffe. I cloned the offending track and did the panning/offsetting job Manfred mentioned, and while it didn't fix the problem, it made the guitar part sound a lot better. The problem is that I bent a particular note when I didn't mean to. I suppose I could either pitch shift it down, if I can do that with automation and not have to do the whole track; or if worst came to it I could always rerecord the track, which isn't that long anyway.

All very much appreciated.