aja
racman wrote:
the only thing that worries me about pinless is teh cosmetic issue of all those coloured ball ends. There must be a solution to this though besides buying different strings ?
haha, nail varnish? I am sure the luthier can make a matching cover to cover up the slot or something?
I like the look of the exposed ball ends - you can see them doing their job - I hate the feeling of shoving the ball into a deep hole then sticking some golf tee thing in there (Ray? hehe) and holding thumbs that it somehow stays in there...
Gearhead
Surely the strings can be fed through the bridge from the body side, with the balls sitting underneath the top? The one thing the luthier needs to consider is getting the break angle about right, but this does not come very accurately (as long as it's more than the bare minimum, which it would always be).
racman
After a rather long weekend of contemplating and frequent e-mail discussions with Peter we have sort of nailed down the preliminary specs.
Considering that I have three Indian Rosewood acoustics already we decided to go with Peter's suggestion of the great piece of Quilted Sapele for the back and sides. His absolute favourite soundboard is Redwood and we have decided to spend a little more on a selected piece of "Sinker" Redwood for it's tonal properties. As Sinker Redwood colours range from a Cedar like red to a dark brownish colour, I have asked Peter to select the lightest, reddish tone piece that he can get.
So the Specs are as follows:
Model : Cornerstone Zion
Back & Sides : Quilted Sapele
Soundboard : Sinker Redwood single top
Bindings : Ebony
Ryan Bevel : Macassar Ebony
Fingerboard : Ebony
Purflings : Blue Paua Abalone on top
Cutaway : Florentine
Soundport : Design to be decided
To be decided later but my initial preferences:
Rosette : Blue Paua Abalone only
Tuners : Gotoh 510 - Black Chrome with black knobs
Bridge : Pinless (but I can't figure out how one hides the colored ball-ens of some strings. If one can't then we will go for normal)
Pick-Up : B-Band A2.2 with PreAmp UST & AST
Inlays : 12th Fret
Still a long wait until August start date ... need a little patience ....NOW!!!! ?
racman
For those interested in "Sinker" Redwood here is a brief description:
"Redwood is also Known as: California Redwood, Coastal Redwood
Botanical Name: Sequoia sempervirons
Origin: Northern California and Oregon Coasts
Comments: "Sinker "Redwood is Redwood salvaged from the bottom of the Sacramento River. These logs were harvested over 150 years ago, and floated down the river to the mills. Many logs sank before reaching the mill. Minerals that leached into the wood, as the logs sat on the river bottoms for decades, create a stunning range of colors. The colors of each log are one-of-a-kind.
Due to concerns regarding fish in the rivers, salvaging of these logs is no longer permitted. As a result, the supply of Sinker Redwood is limited. Sinker Redwood has the beautiful tonal properties of Old Growth Redwood."
zohn
racman wrote:
Back & Sides : Quilted Sapele
Soundboard : Sinker Redwood single top
Bindings : Ebony
Ryan Bevel : Macassar Ebony
Cutaway : Florentine
Soundport : Design to be decided
Yaaaayhoooooha!!!! I can't wait to see and hear it :? - tone, ultra fast response, tone, lightness, tone, playability, tone, tone!! that is going to be a
serias finger-style guitar... What is the scale length?
Sean
Groan... great thread, but I'm suffering from information overload ?
@ Zohn and Racman - Hope we'll be seeing you guys at future X-stocks, we want need to see/hear these instruments you guys own, and of course this Cornerstone Zion, when it finally lands in SA.
Squonk
I think Racman needs to have RAC-Stock at his house, so we can try out the Martin and Taylor as well ?
My brother had a guitar made by Brook Guitars (Devon UK) www.brookguitars.com
He also went the same route as Racman, weighing up all the combinations before finally deciding on his dream guitar.
Then came the fretting, because as all good luthiers, Brook took quite long to craft the guitar.
Sadly when he got the guitar, he was not too impressed with the tone, so it basically lives in a guitar case.
I tried it out and loved the playability and the tone, but he wont part with it because he spent 2000 pounds.
Good stuff Rac
racman
Squonk wrote:
I think Racman needs to have RAC-Stock at his house, so we can try out the Martin and Taylor as well ?
My brother had a guitar made by Brook Guitars (Devon UK) www.brookguitars.com
He also went the same route as Racman, weighing up all the combinations before finally deciding on his dream guitar.
Then came the fretting, because as all good luthiers, Brook took quite long to craft the guitar.
Sadly when he got the guitar, he was not too impressed with the tone, so it basically lives in a guitar case.
I tried it out and loved the playability and the tone, but he wont part with it because he spent 2000 pounds.
Good stuff Rac
I hear you and it is still one of my huge concers, but the 7-day return policy if not satisfied with the guitar, coupled with the fact that I should be collecting in person so can actually play it for the 7 days, sort of made it a relatively safe bet for me.
@Sean - I don't own a Taylor anymore but I don't mind bringing my Tak, Martin & Morgan to the next x-stock as long as I don't have to play ... ?
racman
Can't recall if I posted a pic of my now chosen back and side wood (matching sides not in pic). ? ?
Pictures of the available selection of Sinker Redwood tops will be sent to me by Friday (hopefully) so I will post and ask all fellow enthusiasts to help me select one please.
racman
zohn wrote:
What is the scale length?
Scale length is 25.7"
zohn
Cool, cool bananas!! :dance:
Keira-WitherKay
racman wrote:
Squonk wrote:
I think Racman needs to have RAC-Stock at his house, so we can try out the Martin and Taylor as well ?
My brother had a guitar made by Brook Guitars (Devon UK) www.brookguitars.com
He also went the same route as Racman, weighing up all the combinations before finally deciding on his dream guitar.
Then came the fretting, because as all good luthiers, Brook took quite long to craft the guitar.
Sadly when he got the guitar, he was not too impressed with the tone, so it basically lives in a guitar case.
I tried it out and loved the playability and the tone, but he wont part with it because he spent 2000 pounds.
Good stuff Rac
I hear you and it is still one of my huge concers, but the 7-day return policy if not satisfied with the guitar, coupled with the fact that I should be collecting in person so can actually play it for the 7 days, sort of made it a relatively safe bet for me.
ok well the question is .
does the 7 day return policy apply to the tone...as well...........
i know all the luthiers i spoke to in last year would gaurentee their workmanship, some even the delivery date but none would gaurentee that the guitar would have a particular tone.... since to me and my requirements i'm searching for a particular tone and know what it is...and can show examples even.... and i still was told a guitars particular tone was impossible to gauge until the strings were on ..... and lets be honest thats too late to change ones mind... so tone can be judged to fall within a certain tonal ballpark but never more precise than that ....... which to me was not good enough
great example is i love the Ramirez tone of their "professional series", yet for every 10 ramirez's i play (thankfully they in all european stores and even here in SA stores ..... ) of the same model i will prefer only maybe 3 of the 10 cos at that price the instrument needs be perfect for the player...
so i'm certain if there's a mark or a slight flaw i'm sure he will fix it under gaurentee, and yes we know the top builders make beautiful guitars very well so the chances of a flaw is rare........
but if you get it and strum it and say ..actually i needed or wanted a ever so darker tone or something in that line ...i somehow doubt he will accept a return on that basis
or am i incorrect in thinking this..........
cos squonks brother is not the 1st person who has ordered a guitar to be crafted by a luthier only to sell it off immeadiately or just keep it as an investment AND NOT PLAY IT ....cos it was not tonally what they expected.....
and please i am not being negative in any way cos this very question of buying something i have not heard has kept me up at nights often in last year ...so it's very close to home for me this question
and what i have seen athsetically of your choice of build is absolutely beautiful, so i'm excited for you ....however interested in finding out if you considered that tone is almost a "black art" and have you ever played on this builders guitars for long enough ...cos often one listen is never enough to judge tone and feel........ one must get thru the excitement of the 'wow' moment then one only hears the nuances in the tone........
racman
@ Keira - your concerns are causing me sleepless nights already !!! ?
Yes the guarantee does include tone and states that unless one is satisfied for any reason. However, there are a few caveats of course: Inlays etc that are of a personal nature would be excluded (Understandable I think – who else would buy an ebony guitar with Paua Abalone emblazoned across the top with the words: Mamas Boy). The guarantee means the luthier will sell the instrument first and then refund the amount.
Seriously though, I understand your concerns and believe me, this is exactly why I have done so much research, discussions with luthiers, players of the instruments as well as listening to sound tracks sent to me or placed on a forum recorded mic'ed not through the UST. Does this provide any guarantee - absolutely not! Each instrument has its own unique tonal character due to the combinations of woods, bracing etc. Not to mention that fact that each piece of wood has its own particular tone within a broad tonal spectrum generally associated with the particular type of wood. However, each piece has its own grain pattern. age, has been affected by different weather and moisture content in its life span etc, etc. In fact, although the previously posted Taylor tone wood diagram posted by Zohn is merely a very rough guideline and most luthiers I discussed this with advised against using this chart as an absolute for wood choice.
You are so right Keira, it is a HUGE gamble no matter how one does it. There are many factors and methods that can reduce the gamble but even with these factors and processes it is still a gamble. Take Adirondack Spruce for example. Whether one believes the issues of wood "opening up" with time (spent playing not age of the instrument only) or not, the fact is that it is general consensus that Adi tops take a number of years to sound fantastic so the tonal properties of the instrument could change over time in both the positive or negative to ones own tonal requirements.
Regarding the tone question, we think alike as I also believe that all tonal properties of woods etc are mere guideline and the advantage of many discussions with the Luthier must include extensive discussions on the tone you like and exactly what you require from your dream guitar. I may say I like a mellow, warm tone which has a certain connection based on my experiences etc while anyone else using the same phrase does not necessarily have the same connections and references so it could in fact mean mellow and warm to them but if I had to play the same guitar I would think it was imbalances, muddy, mushy, lacking in tops and string definition etc. (Just an example but I believe it is a valid point)
After discussing my preferences for weeks with Peter from Cornerstone, I finally asked him this weekend what he would recommend given our numerous discussion etc on my requirements, playing history, views on tone and many other aspects. I had initially informed him that I wanted a Sitka or Engelmann top. I guess I took the step to place a little faith and trust in his abilities and understanding of my needs as per all our correspondence etc that we came up with a spec that I think has the best chance of satisfying me. Is it still a gamble – absolutely!
Of course I have sent Peter the link to this forum when I started the thread so the pressure is on! (I may even encourage him to become a member of the forum if he wants and I think it would be great to have him here – please let me know and I will ask)
Bob-Dubery
Might I just add that this, to me, is the value of real world, physical shops.
E-commerce is fine. E-commerce can save you money (sometimes). E-commerce is convenient.
But dealing with a real world seller gives you what Keira is looking for: You can play THE guitar and evaluate it, ask questions about it, look at it, hold it and so on. It could be George Gruhn's, it could be a pawn shop, but if you can pick the instrument up and play it you have an advantage, a certainty, an extra bit of knowledge that no other method of trade can give you.
Keira-WitherKay
thanks for your well worded reply racman, this is a topic i can chat on about forever..and the other is how to describe tone .... but yes it sounds like you got your bases covered....... and sounds like that gaurentee is a worthy one if it covers tone......
and yeah please ask him to join the forum...... i'd love the insight of renown international luthiers on this site ......
now if we can just get get amelia ramirez to join, ?
hope to chat to you in person sometime .... over a cuppa tea and debate acoustics..... and all other things that make life worth living
keep us posted on your progress .......
peace and light
K
Peterm
Pretty cool site you guys have over here! ?
Well Roy, thanks for your invitation to join the forum. I don't have much time available to spend here but I did read this thread and found it very interesting. Looks nice a bunch of nice and caring people around these parts of the world!
Tone is a subject that comes up very often. Just like most aspects of anything people enjoy they are subjected to personal taste much like food or cars. Sure, there are good cars and good food and bad ones too but within what we call good there could be a great big area of subjectivity.
I really don't like to compare my guitars to "off the shelf instruments" but I do agree it offers a good way for one to select an instrument among a few others and pick the one that pleases us best. But we are talking a different realm of instruments here. Some (not all or most) of the worlds top luthiers offer a product altogether different. The whole experience is different as well as the process which in the end results in a totally different guitar.
What a person can expect from a handbuilt guitar is not only the end product but a journey of unequal pleasure. Let me explain....
Wood comes from different sources and a tree can yield hundreds or thousands of guitar sets. Tops or backs and sides depending on the tree. What happens to all that wood? is it all for guitar building? I can't answer that but I can tell you that a vast majority of that wood is not suitable for guitar building and from what is ONLY a very small part makes it into the small shop or my shop. What makes it a "Master" grade? sound? Color? Even Grain? How about "all of the above"? You guessed it right. The big factories buy wood at much less cost but they buy wood by containers or cants....but first the dealer goes through it and "cherry picks" the good stuff.
I don't buy wood in bulk, I buy 1 or 2 sets at a time and focus on the quality of what I buy. Some of my stash has been with me for over 5 years.
So here's a preview to a custom guitar build:
First you get to decide WHO builds your guitar. You talk with him/her and get/offer input about playing style, likes and dislikes and so on.
There is a wide variety of woods which you get to look through either in person or photographs.
You decide on body shape, accents and every little detail.
Once the build starts there is a constant flow of progress pictures and you get to see your new "baby" taking shape from raw wood to a beautiful instrument.
The builder uses his experience and shapes the braces and thins the soundboard in an effort to unleash the soundboard's potential.
The sides are bent one at a time and the neck is carefully carved by hand. Lots of passion and love are poured into an instrument....a one of a kind instrument.
The Luthier crafts every little detail. Carefully cutting mitters and cleaning every little glue that may run from a joint.
Meanwhile you see it taking place. Soon your wait is over, you can't believe your eyes.... its a guitar!!! There are no splinters or rough edges and you know you could spot your guitar from the midst of thousand others. Then you strum a chord and you realize why you waited so long. It has more presence, more volume and the tone is rich and complex. It sounds great and keeps getting better as it ages. The neck is nice and smooth and that uncomfortable forearm that kept getting numb from resting against the corner of the soundboard as you play is not bothering you any more. Man, the bevel does make a difference. You love how the back rumbles and vibrates against you as you play.... and the list goes on.
A custom guitar is an experience not really a purchase. Most my customers are sad when the journey is over. Yes, they are happy the wait is over but the whole experience left a mark on their hearts.
I hope that my passion for building guitars may be revealed in Roy's guitar and that you guys have a chance to play it some day so I can get some feedback.
Sorry about my long post but when passion takes over there's no stopping me! ?
Best of wishes to all,
Peter
Keira-WitherKay
welcome to the forum Peter , your input will be invaluable,
and if you have the time to make a few posts on say tone and how to achieve it , i'd love to read it cos yes most of us are seeking specific tones so any input is always welcome and especially from a luthiers perspective
peace and light
keira
racman
Welcome to the forum Peter!
I can only echo what you have said as I am enjoying the experience already and we've only just begun! ?
@Keira - will definitely call about that cuppa soon to discuss tone, and how you can teach me to reveal more of my guitars unlocked tone through improved playing. ?
Squonk
Yoohoo
Rac-Stock is on the cards!
We will definately have to hear the ZION.
God stuff Rac, I love what Pete said about the build being an experience and a journey!
I'm all excited for you! :woohoo:
chris77
Firstly, congrats on pulling the trigger Racman.B-) I love the idea of having an instrument hand built to your own specs and tastes. Electrics not so much, (after a year or two I would be fiddling with the hardware, I just know it....) but a one of a kind acoustic, man, for sure! And yup, it is easier to buy a finished instrument, but if the luthier has a good rep, the risks are minimal imo.
