Classical Guitar Project

makepeace

Hi guys ?

Ok so I have this average Maxwell guitar at home which I bought for a few hundred bucks when I wanted to learn to play guitar. I then moved on to electric as my skills developed blah blah blah.

http://terryd.co.za/mxc391.html Here it is in all its glory.

The guitar has been pretty manhandled/not looked after very well and after getting into playing folkey music, I have decided to refinish it and do some modifications.

Nut:

It came with a poor quality plastic nut (after taking it off I discovered it was hollow with a bracing wall going through the middle) that was sommer glued on in a very inaccurate position. After doing a bit of research, I was taken by brass nuts and bought a blank on ebay which I promises to arrive shortly. My first question: could any body give me some specs for string spacing at the nut end? I plan on using Ernie ball Ernesto Palla Nylon ball ends (ball end will be explained later) on it with gauges from 1st to 6th: 0.028, 0.032, 0.040, 0.030, 0.036, 0.042. The fretboard width at the nut end is 51.5mm. Second question: if anybody could tell me what heights the string grooves on the nut should be from the fretboard? The frets are between 1.15-1.20mm high. I would have copied the specs from the previous nut but judging by its quality, I don't rely on it to be accurate.

Bridge:

The bridge it came with is your typical painted black classical guitar bridge. It was made of a very weak wood, may have been pine or something. After about the 3rd restring, the strings had dug grooves into the bridge. I found a good hard piece of Shorea or Meranti as its known in SA and crafted quite a neat looking bridge out of it. I only have one question here, has anybody built guitars with this type of wood? if so, any good? I'll add a picture of my bridge I've made asap.

Saddle:

The saddle it came with was of a similar material and build quality as the nut: soft cream plastic, very inaccurate. I plan to replace the saddle with a brass one, a blank of which has been ordered as well. Questions here: what string spacings should be used on the saddle? what should the height of the top of the saddle be above the body? The height of the previous saddle above the body was about 12.5mm.

Tailpiece:

As this is my first guitar project, I decided to be a little creative. I plan on adding a short tailpiece with string retainer (hence the ball end strings). This decision was also influenced by my tentativity as regards crafting the bridge to accept plain nylon strings and the other alternatives (pegs, ferruled bridge/ovation style). I've ordered a bronze tailpiece, measures about 7cm from the hinge to the end.

Neck/frets:

I am leaving these as is.

Pickup:

I found an old ceramic piezo disk lying around the house. I fastened it under the bridge plate inside the guitar and played it through my amp and it doesnt sound too bad. Lacks a bit of bass and mid. I found a schematic of a preamp which I am going to build to help sweeten the tone a bit. http://liutaiomottola.com/PrevPubs/Piezo/CoaxTransducer.htm. Has anyone had any experience as regards cheapie DIY piezo transducers? I have researched fancy piezo systems (Fishman, LR Baggs) but I feel they are out of my price range for this guitar at the moment.

Finish:

The guitar has a plywood body (really average) and was high gloss clear finished on the top, with a dark tint on the back and sides. I want to finish it in a dark tint all over, and do a burst with an even darker tint around the edges, with the same darker tint on the sides. I think I want to go for a satin texture, but might go gloss.

Cool. Hopefully if i can get all of the above done nicely I should end up with a unique sound, and a good looker. Would be glad to hear what people think about this project, and obviously I would be very grateful to those who can answer my questions!

Thanks!

Cheers.

Bob-Dubery

makepeace wrote
Nut:

It came with a poor quality plastic nut (after taking it off I discovered it was hollow with a bracing wall going through the middle) that was sommer glued on in a very inaccurate position. After doing a bit of research, I was taken by brass nuts and bought a blank on ebay which I promises to arrive shortly. My first question: could any body give me some specs for string spacing at the nut end? I plan on using Ernie ball Ernesto Palla Nylon ball ends (ball end will be explained later) on it with gauges from 1st to 6th: 0.028, 0.032, 0.040, 0.030, 0.036, 0.042. The fretboard width at the nut end is 51.5mm. Second question: if anybody could tell me what heights the string grooves on the nut should be from the fretboard? The frets are between 1.15-1.20mm high. I would have copied the specs from the previous nut but judging by its quality, I don't rely on it to be accurate.

Brass is an unusual choice for a nylon string guitar. My first choice would have been Tusq, which is available locally. Can you not use the old nut as a template?

Bridge:

The bridge it came with is your typical painted black classical guitar bridge. It was made of a very weak wood, may have been pine or something. After about the 3rd restring, the strings had dug grooves into the bridge. I found a good hard piece of Shorea or Meranti as its known in SA and crafted quite a neat looking bridge out of it. I only have one question here, has anybody built guitars with this type of wood? if so, any good? I'll add a picture of my bridge I've made asap.

An unusual choice, but not an invalid one. Mervyn Davis uses kiaat for bridges.

Saddle:

The saddle it came with was of a similar material and build quality as the nut: soft cream plastic, very inaccurate. I plan to replace the saddle with a brass one, a blank of which has been ordered as well. Questions here: what string spacings should be used on the saddle? what should the height of the top of the saddle be above the body? The height of the previous saddle above the body was about 12.5mm.

Again an unusual choice of material. It's a lot heavier, so I think there must be some effect on the movement of the top and bridge and thus the tone. However you might find this to your liking. Again I'd go for Tusq. Why do you need to concern yourself with string spacing on the saddle? Surely the bridge and nut will fix the spacing?

As to the height, start high and shave it down until you achieve a desirable action. Have two saddles in case you take too much off of the first one ?

[deleted]

sounds like you're going to make a nice guitar!

makepeace

Thanks for your reply bob.

Yep I'm in no way going for a conventional sound, this is meant as a bit of an experiment. Hence the brass ?. I've looked at tusq, bone and ivory and they all seem a little too normal.

As I say I thought of using the specs of the old nut to set up the new nut, but I'm a bit skeptical as to the quality of the old nut's setup. I know for a fact that the strings were a bit high, probably due to conservatism as regards fret buzz. I was wondering if there is any sort of standard formula that one should stick to that takes the string gauge and fret height into account.

As regards the saddle, my plan is to cut grooves into it as well. As the tailpiece is not going to be custom made, I'm not sure that it's spacing will allow for a nice taper that follows the lines of the fretboard. I hear you as regards the saddle height, I'll start at about 13mm and go down. I have a nice vernier which will ensure that I don't take too much off ?.

Viccy, I hope it turns out well. I'm quite excited. ?

makepeace

Here are some pictures of the bridge I've made (so far):

http://s791.photobucket.com/albums/yy194/jonomakepeace/Classical%20Rebuild/?action=view&current=IMG_0003.jpg

Comparison with the old bridge

http://s791.photobucket.com/albums/yy194/jonomakepeace/Classical%20Rebuild/?action=view&current=IMG_0006.jpg

?

Bob-Dubery

makepeace wrote
As I say I thought of using the specs of the old nut to set up the new nut, but I'm a bit skeptical as to the quality of the old nut's setup. I know for a fact that the strings were a bit high, probably due to conservatism as regards fret buzz. I was wondering if there is any sort of standard formula that one should stick to that takes the string gauge and fret height into account.

I was thinking only of the string spacing.

As regards height of nut and saddle, unless you know that the neck has correct relief and you dress the frets you will have to compromise on nut and saddle height.

I don't know of a formula, but then I'm not a repair guy.

You could check out www.frets.com - there's quite a lot of good information about setups on that site.

AlanRatcliffe

Where did you find 2" brass classical blanks? You sure they are not steel string or electric? I don't recommend brass for anything - difficult to work (nut files are not made to cut metals), heavy and prone to breaking your strings - especially nylon strings. Or are you just using brass stock? Unbleached bone or Tusq are hard to beat and either will improve the sound of the guitar quite a bit over plastic.

The nut spacing formulas are available on frets.com as Bob shared - just plug in the E-E spacing (usually about 41mm for nylon) and string gauges and you'll get the exact measurements. But far easier to get a slotted nut and cut to the correct depth, or use a cheapie as a template.

Get the exact height of your frets and use feeler gauges the same height on the fingerboard side of the nut, then cut 'till your file touches the gauge (or just above for nylon)

Bridge E-E string spacing is usually 58mm. Saddle height is entirely down to taste (and a measurement is useless anyway - depends on neck angle, fret height, etc.) - most classical players use an action that would make a steel player scream.

Meranti isn't first choice for a bridge (your hardwoods are better), but will work.

Never use Ernesto Palla nylon strings (of any type) - the trebles don't intonate properly. I'm also not sure if a ball ended nylon will be long enough to use a tailpiece, which adds a few inches of string length. I'm not sure about the tailpiece at all to be honest - Why not make a traditional or at least an Ovation style nylon bridge? Both of which take a ball end well.

You do need a preamp for any piezo device - they are very high impedance (2-5 Meg Ohm) and you lose most of the low end plugging into almost any input. You don't need a lot of gain, but the impedance matching is crucial. Be aware that each type of piezo (ceramic, coax, polymer) usually has slightly different preamp requirements for optimal tone. I think I might have a Fishman Matrix natural preamp that's missing it's pickup somewhere if you want to get one cheap rather than building.

makepeace

Thanks for the link bob. Will pour over it for a few hours tonight. Looks like it has lots of relevant info.

I managed to find a 2" x 1/4" x 3/8" brass nut blank on ebay (its actually meant for an acoustic bass). I have already paid for it and the brass saddle so I guess I'll try them out. I'm not worried about the workability at the moment. I'm pretty good with my hands and have a very well stocked garage, and as this is a once off, its something that I don't mind spending a bit of time on.

I've looked around frets.com for the nut spacing and I can't seem to find it. Does anyone have a link they could post?

Well thats pretty frustrating to hear about the strings...why don't they intonate properly? I looked at the D'Addario Folk Nylons at first, but Bothners didn't have them, so I got the Pallas. Does anyone know if the Folk Nylons are any better? Or are there other ball end nylons that I should look at?

I definately want to go for the tailpiece. I've checked it out, and the string length won't be a problem. I'd like to do it for individuality sake.

As for the preamp, I ordered some parts from Small Bear Electronics for a pedal I'm building and managed to squeak the components for the preamp in for an equivalent of R20, so pretty chuffed about that. That Fishman preamp, however, sounds good. I'll let you know how the DIY preamp goes ?.

Thanks for your opinions and advice!

AlanRatcliffe

The D'Addario are far better strings. The Pallas I think it's that the nylon they use is inconsistent (I've seen a lot of bubbles in their trebles), so they don't vibrate evenly and that obviously gets worse as you climb the neck, shortening the scale length. It sounds like the classical version of Stratitis. The electric strings are Ernie Ball's bread and butter and I suspect they may just be doing the nylons so they can have a complete range and probably subcontracting someone to make them cheaply.

Any classical player will tell you just how important strings are (my sets cost R295 a set) and the problem with going ball-end is you have little choice - they are made for beginners, who don't know how to do the wraparound properly, so are usually cheap and nasty. Black Diamond used to have a set of ball ended too.

makepeace

Thanks for that info Alan. I will get on finding some. Do you know off-hand where I could get them? I've been in contact with Bothners and also a local music shop where I live and they don't seem to be able to get the d'addario folk nylons. Thanks again for all the help!

AlanRatcliffe

<sigh> Tell them to order them and phone you when they get them. I really hate it when a salesman says "out of stock" and doesn't offer to get them.

I recently had occasion to complain because out of 20 sets of strings I asked for the store only had one set. I wouldn't mind if it were the unusual sets like my Savarez Flamenco strings, my D'Addario electric 12-string sets or my double ball end bass strings, but it was also things like Power Slinkys, D'Addario Phosphor Bronze, Elixir Bronze Nanowebs - all common strings. Anyone else finding this a trend?

Bob-Dubery

Alan Ratcliffe wrote I recently had occasion to complain because out of 20 sets of strings I asked for the store only had one set. I wouldn't mind if it were the unusual sets like my Savarez Flamenco strings, my D'Addario electric 12-string sets or my double ball end bass strings, but it was also things like Power Slinkys, D'Addario Phosphor Bronze, Elixir Bronze Nanowebs - all common strings. Anyone else finding this a trend?

Yep. It seems to be feast or famine. In my case there are two kinds of famine. I use PB Elixirs and I find there are only two kinds of store in Jo'burg - the kind that are sold out and the kind that go "Phosphor bronze? What do you want THOSE for?"

This seems to be brand aligned and thus maybe related to specific distributors. I can ALWAYS get DRs, but shops (or the ones that I go to) seem to run out of Elixir PBs fairly regularly. I've built up a little stash - which is easier because at the moment I use the same strings on all my guitars.

Bob-Dubery

makepeace wrote Thanks for the link bob. Will pour over it for a few hours tonight. Looks like it has lots of relevant info.

I managed to find a 2" x 1/4" x 3/8" brass nut blank on ebay (its actually meant for an acoustic bass). I have already paid for it and the brass saddle so I guess I'll try them out. I'm not worried about the workability at the moment. I'm pretty good with my hands and have a very well stocked garage, and as this is a once off, its something that I don't mind spending a bit of time on.

I've looked around frets.com for the nut spacing and I can't seem to find it. Does anyone have a link they could post?

This may help
http://www.frets.com/fretspages/Luthier/Tools/NutRule/nutrule.html

Failing that, was the SPACING on the old nut so bad that you can't use it as a template?

Bob-Dubery

Or this may help with string spacing
http://www.guitarrasjaen.com/English%20Version/EquispacingCalculator.htm

Failing that, just google ?

makepeace

Cool! Thanks. I also found one at http://www.manchesterguitartech.co.uk/nut_slot.php
. Exactly what I need.

To be honest my experience of music shops is that the people that work in them are extremely arrogant, and as if its a chore to do anything for you. Obviously this is just an opinion regarding what I have experienced, and it is in no way a generalization. It's quite frustrating.

Thanks again!

CDee

Alan Ratcliffe wrote but it was also things like Power Slinkys, D'Addario Phosphor Bronze, Elixir Bronze Nanowebs - all common strings. Anyone else finding this a trend?

Yip, I ended up getting my Elixir's from Strings and beyond for my acoustic (Worked out alot sheaper too). I probably frequent the same stores as Bob and I find it annoying when they are out of stock on an item as popular as Elixir PB and Elixir electric strings. I switched to the Ernie Ball coated slinkys on my electric yesterday, so I hope they work well.

makepeace

Ok so i've got all my parts, mostly finished sanding and done a dry fit and its looking awesome so far. will post a picture just now.

I want to talk about finishing. I am going to do a brown burst. The wood's natural colour is quite light, so I'll have to stain the whole thing first. Then do a dark brown/imbuia burst on top of it on the outsides.

I just want to talk about the different options for finishes. I looked around and there seem to be two main options: nitrocellulose and polyurathane.

Polyurathane seems to be more readily accessible (seen it for sale in hardware stores). I haven't seen nitrocellulose anywhere.

Can anybody tell me a thing or two about nitro vs poly? And maybe where to find nitro if it ends up being the better solution.

Cool thanks

AlanRatcliffe

Nitro. Not as hard or as durable as polyurethane, but better looking and has the major advantage of being repairable as each coat blends into the last.

Available from Plascon under the fancy name of "Wood Lacquer". Rarely available in shops (it's more a trade product than a consumer one), but easy for any Plascon stockist to order - WL6 is the Plascon number for it. The Plascon sanding sealer is also a nitro product and that is easy to find anywhere.

makepeace

Fortunately I have a relative who owns a hardware store that stocks plascon so that shouln't be a problem.

Is it neccesary to apply the sanding sealer?

Also are there stains that you can add to the "wood lacquer", also available from plascon? or do they come in different colours?

Thanks!

AlanRatcliffe

Is it neccesary to apply the sanding sealer?

Not essential unless you're trying to get a piano finish on an uneven surface.

Also are there stains that you can add to the "wood lacquer", also available from plascon? or do they come in different colours?

Not that I know of - I make my own. I used to use one of the Woodoc stains (the yellowood), but they've gone from liquid to a paste that doesn't dissolve in lacquer finishes. Some of the other liquid stains may work (if they don't blend with the finish, try add some acetone).