Acoustic? Acoustic Electric?

Bob-Dubery · 2010-03-04T11:13:26+00:00

OK... so I just received some CDs I ordered from Amazon. Three of these are by artists operating in the British folk/acoustic scene. Trespasser by Chris Woo...

Acoustic? Acoustic Electric?

evolucian

If memory serves correctly you can switch from on to the other, right? If theres feedback coming in on the mic one right?

true on the meal every three days... sounds like the makings of motley crue where the whole band shared a plate of chips one of their sisters brought along from mac. Times were tough i guess... but it paid off

Bob-Dubery

evolucian wrote: If memory serves correctly you can switch from on to the other, right? If theres feedback coming in on the mic one right?

That depends.... ?

If you run it in MONO mode (as I do) then you control the amount of mic you add to the signal from the UST. If you run STEREO then you control the volume of the mic and the UST independently of each other.

Additionally if you run STEREO you can set things up so that only the UST goes back to the monitors whilst UST and mic go to front of house.

evolucian

X-rated Bob wrote: Additionally if you run STEREO you can set things up so that only the UST goes back to the monitors whilst UST and mic go to front of house.

This one will be tricky though... what if the mic one starts feeding back? Do yu have a feedbacker or something like it in the chain?

singemonkey

I just remain a little sceptical, since I've heard a lot of people compliment certain expensive modern acoustic setups that sound to my ears like a child's toy guitar. I wonder if people haven't got to used to that sound. A condenser mic inside the guitar sounds like a good start though - combined with a magnetic pickup.

Bob-Dubery

evolucian wrote:
X-rated Bob wrote: Additionally if you run STEREO you can set things up so that only the UST goes back to the monitors whilst UST and mic go to front of house.
This one will be tricky though... what if the mic one starts feeding back? Do yu have a feedbacker or something like it in the chain?

Well the mic would not be going to the monitors, which reduces the chance of feedback. However with the system that I have if it starts howling then you simply turn the mic off by reducing the volume all the way.

In my experience you don't want a lot of mic anyway, and I haven't had a problem. But then I haven't played the 02 Arena lately either.

You can also run it with mic and UST out of phase, which should also make feedback less likely.

Bob-Dubery

singemonkey wrote: I just remain a little sceptical, since I've heard a lot of people compliment certain expensive modern acoustic setups that sound to my ears like a child's toy guitar. I wonder if people haven't got to used to that sound.

Quite possibly - since you hear it a lot on CDs as well these days. I have played with just a UST and had people come and tell me my guitar sounds fab (not my guitar PLAYING, but the sound of the GUITAR through the PA). I think that they're equating it to what they're used to hearing anyway - or maybe expectations are reduced and we accept what we usually get.

I will add that not all built-in piezo pickups are equal. Some do a better job than others. And recent experience leads me to concluding that installation plays a role too, so if they're being whacked in on a production line then that might not be optimal.

A condenser mic inside the guitar sounds like a good start though - combined with a magnetic pickup.

I have trialled various systems lately - all Baggs but different systems from their range, and all with steel-string (the game might be different for classical).

I tried....

I-Beam - this is a transducer that goes under the bridge plate
Element -this is a UST (IMO the best sounding of this type of pickup)
I-Mix - blends Element and I-Beam
Dual Source - combines Element and internal condensor mic

OK... so we know which way I inclined. I don't find any of the single source solutions to be convincing - they are all good in some respects, less good in others.

I think you have to go TWO sources to try to blend the strengths of the two. A friend of mine had the I-Mix fitted to a high-end Larrivee and got a good sound out of that. One of the guys in the shop (McGibbbon's) told me that he tested with the I-Mix AND the Baggs M1 which is an in-soundhole magnetic pickup (modified so that the coil senses vibrations from the soundboard) and THAT (now a triple source) sounded very good.

It would help if the stores had a guitar set up with different systems so that you could trial them back to back - but that does cost money.

Another help is for people to RTFM. I see/hear too many people who have got a built in system with 3-band EQ and whose "set up" is to turn everything all the way up. If that system has a notch filter then who knows what the heck they are doing with it.

There is one particular lady who plays occasionally at TJs and who usually gets a much better sound than most other people playing there. She doesn't have a particularly good guitar or have a particularly special pickup etc installed. But what she has done is to understand what the EQ and the notch filter do and figure out some settings that sound good (oddly this is NOT with everything turned all the way up).

I've had the Dual Source installed in two guitars now, and in both cases I spent about 45 minutes with the tech setting it up after installation. That included marking positions on the thumbwheel controls so that I could return to the sweet spot we found in the shop and use that as a basis to start making fine adjustments from.

Not that I'm saying my system is 100% accurate etc etc - but you can spend a little bit of time figuring out how to make use of what you've got.

evolucian

yeah... the blend knob makes sense... I also wouldn't use the mic too much... what if your stomach is grumbling a lot that day... Imagine that sound? lol... mic'd up to 50 000 or 100 000 people? what do you do? Say it didn't pay rent? Cos they not gonna believe it was your stomach... lol... nevermind... thoughts just going haywire here

Keira-WitherKay

singemonkey wrote: I just remain a little sceptical, since I've heard a lot of people compliment certain expensive modern acoustic setups that sound to my ears like a child's toy guitar. I wonder if people haven't got to used to that sound. A condenser mic inside the guitar sounds like a good start though - combined with a magnetic pickup.

yeah even though i have 2 of my guitars also set up with baggs systems.... i'm still a believer that a condenser is the only and most "natural sound" but hey we all not purists........so what the f@#k long as you play well,

but re singe's comment re condenser inside the guitar ....just by itself it is a horrible sound..as a guitar is designed to project the sound out of the sound hole ...... and the best place to hear the natural tone is about 15- 30 cm from front and slightly off the centre of the soundhole......... the sound from an internal pickup is only meant to compliment and add 'air" to the UST sound and how do i know this cos i ran a condenser inside my classical with a ust for ages and finally replaced iut with either external mic..... or ibeam.......(which has pleasure of no feedback and NOT that direct UST sound) so yeah forget using a dual system as an "either or" system,...........the only way it works ...well not really but is if you use the UST by itself..... it sounds just like the usual too direct non natural sound....... or one can use the condenser to help colour the UST sound and get admittedly a much better sound......... but NEVER can you use the condeser by itself it just sounds thin and boxy.......

so a mic must be outside the guitar if it's the only source of the sound being picked up ...........

and yeah singe i agree ... nothing compares to an external condenser mic ........ and i do think many people get too used to the pickup sound.....even in top end guitars .... till they hear that guitar with a descent condenser................ so +1 there singe

and yeah i know a few musicians world wide who refuse to have any internal pickups.......... and yes the external mic is a HUGE problem ask me......... i been there and got the T shirt ........... but if one has the chance to use the external mic it's so worth it ........... and it picks up the nuances so much better than any pick up system ............

Bob-Dubery

Keira WitherKay wrote: but re singe's comment re condenser inside the guitar ....just by itself it is a horrible sound.

+1

Just out of curiosity I put one of my dual source guitars into stereo mode so that I could UST and mic independently. I then set the UST right down and the mic up.

Yech!

It's too boxy. And sort of cardboard boxy at that.

What the internal mic DOES do is put some "air" into the mix. I use it to add colour to the UST, to warm it up a little. And I don't want a lot of it in the mix.

singemonkey

Does anyone use a mic that hovers above the sound board in the way that saxophone players' mics are attached to their instruments, pointing into the bell? Like, a mic on a flexible arm that hovers a set distance from the sound board? Would that have the same feedback problems? Is the advantage with the saxophone that the instrument is so much louder and that you therefore require lower microphone levels and hence get less feedback?

AlanRatcliffe

@Bob - The key with the "stereo" output of the Dual Source is not to think of it as stereo, but rather think of it as two channels to be mixed and processed at the desk, with it's much more powerful EQ and tone shaping capabilities. Very nice feature.

@Singe - I've tried the clip on mics, but could never get a great sound from them (by itself anyway). The sound at the soundhole is way too boxy. You need to mic up further back to get some of the noise coming off the top and fingerboard.

Keira-WitherKay

singemonkey wrote: Does anyone use a mic that hovers above the sound board in the way that saxophone players' mics are attached to their instruments, pointing into the bell? Like, a mic on a flexible arm that hovers a set distance from the sound board? Would that have the same feedback problems? Is the advantage with the saxophone that the instrument is so much louder and that you therefore require lower microphone levels and hence get less feedback?

yes to both questions......

yes they have designed a mic that clips onto the soundhole with an extension arm ....... never tried one ... and personally don't buy the "look' of it .... and the feedback would be the same.......... since guitars especially nylons can be quite quiet in soft passages......

and yes to you saying the sax is so loud it needs very low levels to be heard clearly .....in most small venues i wouldn't even mic up my brass section ........ and when i worked with my violinist it's incredible that such a small bodied instrument can be so loud........

Squonk

@ Bob

You will have to show me how this all works. Ust and Mic etc. Sounds quite complex.
Or at least what the different sounds are with each and blending etc.

[deleted]

IMO even with mics acoustic guitars don't sound as good as they used to. I think this is down to the construction of studios, where you don't get big rooms with their own natural ambience as often as you did in the 60s and 70s

Even "acoustic" then relies on the environment for the quality of sound, so the equation doesn't just end with acoustic/ electric, it's acoustic/ electric/ environment.

After buying my condenser mic recently I noticed what a wide range of playing I can churn out depending on how nervous I am. So I think a lot of "quality" of the sound is pretty dependant on the player too, or how shall I say, the compatibility of the player with the mic. If you're more aware of what the mic is picking up you can cater to it.

I will send shivers up every one's spine and reveal that I didn't give a damn about what my "sound" was when I first had to go out and make money. I had a KEYBOARD amp (don't even know why I had one- now I'm getting nostalgic) and one of the cheapest/ most offensive sounding stick on pic -up. People really didn't give a damn, and if they did, they were too polite to say anything. I'm very happy to say that I've accepted the addition of amps and mics as part of my instrument, and embrace the challenges and opportunities that these additions bring.

Bob-Dubery

Squonk wrote: @ Bob

You will have to show me how this all works. Ust and Mic etc. Sounds quite complex.
Or at least what the different sounds are with each and blending etc.

Nah. It's dead easy. I just make it sound complicated because I have a propensity for overcomplicating.

We need to have a litttle quality time with one of my guitars and at a place where there's an amp (I don't have one).

Squonk

Watched Lee Ritenour's 'Overtime' Live DVD.

He doesn't play much acoustic guitar but on a couple of tracks he played a Yamaha with AMT S15G clip on mic.

I dont know if it was doctored in the studio, but the acoustic sound was very real. And Lee being a gentle player, it almost looks as though he is hardly touching the fretboard, yet each string played sounded deliberate and clear.

More Info
http://www.appliedmicrophone.com/products/show/19

Bob-Dubery

That would work for some players and not for others. Me - yes. Pete Townsend - no. It does allow more freedom of movement than a mike on a stand.

Does it work for Ritenour?

Seee http://www.appliedmicrophone.com/upload/mediaclips/Lee%20Ritenour%20-%20S15G%20Video.wmv for an brief clip of Ritenour using this in concert. Note that he is not using ONLY this system. There is clearly another lead from his guitar, so it looks like he has some internal pickup and/or system as well.

Keira-WitherKay

well talking aboutkeeping it pure........... a few months ago myself and i know conrad from forum was also at same James grace recital .........at pta university .........and he performed to the entire auditorium unplugged....and i mean totally acoustic,

conrad can correct me but at least 250/300 people in the auditaurium and he had a screen , much like they sell to be used in bedrooms to dress behind ......... this possible helped reflect all the sound forward...or maybe it was just a cool backdrop ........

but yeah no amps, no overhead mics, just an extremely talented man and his beautiful sounding guitar ..........and performing to a full house.......... so yeah maybe we can do more "purist" acoustic gigs if we wanted to........ and put the p/up manufacturers outa work hehehehh

however when he performed with the quartet or quintet his guitar was swamped somewhat by the cello/violins but when he played solo it was awesome .......

so instead of adapting our guitars to sound LOUD and unnatural we should rather just find venues that favour good acoustics and have guitars that have big "voices "

that concert for me was great in that it did shake my thinking on technology.i woulda expected at least overhead mics /guitar condenser mic ...but no ....... lets just say i was impressed

Fingerpicker

It seems that nobody is happy with the sound of their acoustic guitars/pickups, everyone (except Pete M and myself) is looking for the perfect sounding guitar, for them.

Just remember, "If you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with".

I think that with the increased sound pressure on the ear drum of amplified sound, a straight acoustic will never sound the same as a guitar with a pickup, or through a mic. Maybe someone will wake me up one day and say it has been done. Whoopee. I'm not waiting.

Stop searching for a good sound, spend more time practising and expanding your musical understanding.

The weird thing is that when you are performing, you never hear the sound as the audience hears it. Your friends will tell you that you sound great, and that your guitar sounds the best, because they are , well, your friends. (Or the guy that sold you the guitar).

If you want to hear what your guitar sounds like amplified, sit in front of a good acoustic amp (eg SWR) and adjust your guitar until it is as you like it. Leave the settings on the guitar as is, because at least you know it sounded good on the acoustic amp. When the sound guy at the club gets hold of the signal, anything can happen. With luck he will not need to do anything to adjust the sound further.

When it comes to your voice, just hope that you sound okay live, because when you hear yourself recorded, it usually comes as a bit of a shock. Your friends can't help you here.

AlanRatcliffe

Fingerpicker wrote: Just remember, "If you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with".

Very good advice. Make the most of whatever you have.

I think that with the increased sound pressure on the ear drum of amplified sound, a straight acoustic will never sound the same as a guitar with a pickup, or through a mic.

Well a recording through a hi-fi is an amplified sound. Live sound is getting better and better ...and I've learned to never say "never".