Getting that sound... please help

singemonkey

Alan Ratcliffe wrote
a.) I use the limited effects of the PA, and the drive of my old Boss (Metal-zone) pedal
DIing is always a bad idea, doubly so with a distortion pedal and triply so with a Metal Zone.

Why? I've never done it so I don't know. But it seems like it would cut out a lot of amp problems (chiefly for me being told to turn down below the "tone threshold"). What is the disadvantage?

Gearhead

singemonkey wrote But it seems like it would cut out a lot of amp problems (chiefly for me being told to turn down below the "tone threshold"). What is the disadvantage?

The guitar as an instrument was once split into an electrically picked up part one would hang around their neck and an electrically amplified part one would place on the floor. This means that playing without half the instrument like you suggest will be like driving a car without engine. Admittedly there are plenty amps out there that are not worthy of being considered half an instrument, and you don't lose much leaving them out. But a real guitar amp truly is an instrument by itself.
(coming from someone who still does not believe that a piece of sand modding a string of ones and zeroes can ever do anything to Tone like that, which has properly been done in vacuum bottles with loose electrons).

AlanRatcliffe

singemonkey wrote But it seems like it would cut out a lot of amp problems (chiefly for me being told to turn down below the "tone threshold"). What is the disadvantage?

Tone. Remember that a guitar amp is a big part of the unique sound of the electric guitar. With a PA, there is no tone to have a "tone threshold" - you can get an interesting ultra clean DI tone with the right DI Box (Steve Vai's clean tones are often a transformer based DI direct into the console). Unfortunately any kind of distortion or pedal drive does not work very well DI'd, giving you a harsh, buzzy sound - and the more "squarewavey" the drive (i.e. drive > distortion > fuzz), the harsher the sound is without the amp to smooth out the rough edges.

The only acceptable way to DI an electric guitar is with an amp modelling pedal or amp - and most players are unwilling to do even that because of the slight loss of feel with a modelled sound.

singemonkey

Yeah. But that's what I'm talking about. An emulator (analogue is the way I'm thinking of going) that is effectively a preamp, often with a simulated power amp and speaker... are they really not as great as running your tube amp at 2, poorly miked? Seems to me that a lot of what you gain from a tube amp is lost by the realities of typical club gigs. Won't a good emulator more than compensate?

AlanRatcliffe

In many cases I agree with you - although a club gig and a 20 - 30W amp can be a good match (especially if you have an attenuator for the smaller venues too). The big problem with an amp modelling pedal is you are wholly reliant on the monitor rig (unless you have your own), especially when sharing a stage with another guitarist who uses the real thing (inconsiderate louts for the most part, guitarists). Modelling is best when the whole band is DI'd as far as possible, the monitor rig is good and the sound engineer has complete control.

The original question was about distortion pedal directly into a PA though.

singemonkey

Yeah. Agreed on the DI'ing. I'd wondered about monitoring. I've got multiple uses for one of these boxes, including a backup to my amp, practising or jamming through a little solid state amp, and possibly playing gigs with it to save lugging the amp and having to play at sub-optimum volume (bearing in mind what you say about monitoring).

Distortion box into the desk? Pure madness. Ug-ly.

AlanRatcliffe

singemonkey wrote Distortion box into the desk? Pure madness. Ug-ly.

I did it once with a borrowed DS-1 when called on to guest at a friend's gig. Ziggy Stardust (I was playing a doubleneck in those days) sounded more like "Ziggy flayed guitar". "Never again!" I muttered after, and slunk off as unobtrusively as possible.

MIKA-the-better-one

you wouldnt beleive the amount of "sound engineers" that are ok with Lining a guitar via Distortion straight into the desk and out the tops. I use to go to a music college here in JHB for a year, and they would regualarly have music evenings, and they would line a nasty little hughes and kettner solid state amp into the pa.... I was no good at guitar back then (still not) but it sounded AWFUL!!! It surprised me that to a music college they endorsed this awful sound, it was like a hospital endorsing a 90% death rate, for all patients.

Gearhead

MIKA the better one wrote it was like a hospital endorsing a 90% death rate, for all patients.

Darwin would have loved that ?

singemonkey

Gearhead wrote
MIKA the better one wrote it was like a hospital endorsing a 90% death rate, for all patients.
Darwin would have loved that ?

No he would not have. He was devastated by the loss of his children to disease. People mistake his identification of a principle that operates in nature with him endorsing that principle as an approach to human affairs - something that he didn't come close to doing as a humanitarian who was utterly shocked to his core by the treatment of slaves in Brazil.

It's just like saying that Neuton wanted people to jump off buildings because he identified gravity >☹

Gearhead

Learned something today - so how do you think he feels about the Darwin Awards? Looking down from heaven (evolutionists) or up from hell (creationists) he must know they're there? ?

Back ontopic - I think Red-ANT is going into the same GAS-ridden partially tunneled rollercoaster ride that is called 'finding your own sound' and that we all are on. I just take courage from the idea that some of us come out at the other end with something cool. @Red-ANT: Rock on, read, listen, play, admire, copy, modify, sell, buy and play some more. Then back to top.

PeteM

Gearhead wrote @Red-ANT: Rock on, read, listen, play, admire, copy, modify, sell, buy and play some more. Then back to top.

+1 - informed decision-making.

redant

Thanks everyone.

It is evident to me that the amp plays a fairly important role, and I have picked that up myself while playing. Considering that my amp is about 13 years old, and how far amps have come, do you think I will be able to get the sound that I am looking for with the old amp, combined with a new effects-pedal like the Boss GT-10 ?
Or is buying a new amp (and eventually an effects-pedal) inevitable ?

redanT

arjunmenon

Hey Redant, if you've got the Zoom 707 or the 707 II, i'd suggest creating your patches from scratch.
This will give you a good idea of how each effect works.
I managed to get 2 decent clean & driven sounds from my 707. I've only used the 707 for bedroom playing.
Now i've upgraded to the GT10 because its a lot more powerful and its great for recording.
The good thing about the GT10 is that the drive sounds & the ambience effects are very organic.
With the GT10, just by turning down your volume or switching pickups, you can get your guitar to clean up nicely.

tonerider

redant wrote Hello everyone,

I have a good guitar (used to be when I bought it anyway - Ibanez RG47). I have a very old zoom effects box, which in my opinion never cut it from day one, and now sounds even worse.
So I am taking on a bit of a project (trying). Mostly clean sound, including George Michael, Simply Red, Mike & the Mechanics - that sort of stuff. Will be playing alongside a backtrack, and the guitar will go through a PA or guitar amp+PA.

I will be doing mostly rhythm, and trying to give the songs a bit of an edge with some buzzy fills and short leads.

So what do I do with my sound?
What effect box can you suggest? (something that will withstand the test of time a little better than my Zoom).

I have such a terrible ear for sound, and I am somewhat at a loss.

Please helppp...
Red-ANT

Just picked up on this this morning and thought I can give some input too.

There is one important aspect to be aware of when it comes to these digital effect units and multi-effect processors in general. I've just recently picked up valuable info right here on the guitar forum about this very subject. That is that digital effects/multi-effects will NEVER sound good when plugged directly into the front of a guitar amp but they generally sound a whole lot better when plugged into a mixing desk with cab emulations on and so forth.

The portion of the signal chain that goes through the front of the amp (the preamp side) should be your overdrives & distortions. These are mostly analogue and won't change the sound of your amp. The digital portion of the signal like the delays & reverbs or modulation effects like chorus, flanging & rotary effects should be separated from the analogue effects and taken through the effects send and return on the amp. (effects loop)

Once you grasp this concept you will be able get much better sound & tone.

Having said all this it has only recently become possible to separate analogue from the digital in multi-effects processors and as it is I'm on a quest to find a new unit for myself too since mine is getting on now.

Just check out the TC Electronic Nova System here:

Then check out the Digitech RP1000 here:

I'm partial to the Digitech myself!

You will learn a lot just by watching these videos a few times.

Good Luck!

AlanRatcliffe

redant wrote It is evident to me that the amp plays a fairly important role, and I have picked that up myself while playing. Considering that my amp is about 13 years old, and how far amps have come, do you think I will be able to get the sound that I am looking for with the old amp, combined with a new effects-pedal like the Boss GT-10 ?

While age has little to do with it, your tone starts and ends with the amp. You'll get closer than before, but the amp will still be the limiting factor.

Or is buying a new amp (and eventually an effects-pedal) inevitable ?

IMO, yes...

tonerider

I'm with Alan 100%. The amp is ground zero!

Get a good valve amp and make sure that the Boss GT10 is indeed the right unit. Beware! It can be a daunting task getting good non-digital sounds out of any of the Boss GT's when plugged into the front of the amp.

I suggest you go to someone who has one and play around with it first to see if it can give you the sounds that you want.

DonovanB

Redant I think you need to tell us more about this amp.

Andre Meyer wrote That is that digital effects/multi-effects will NEVER sound good when plugged directly into the front of a guitar amp but they generally sound a whole lot better when plugged into a mixing desk with cab emulations on and so forth.

au contraire... Never say Never.... I had my gt8 into a Fender Bassman and it sounded pretty cool to me. Currently I run it straight into the Vox VT50 and guess what? sounds cool again. remember you don't HAVE to use the pre amp or even every available effect on it, just what you need.

I tried putting it through the Effects loop and, unless you are going to use a lot of cables and the 4 cable method then you are wasting your time cos the distortion/drive sounds TERRIBLE through the effects loop.

While I do think valve amps are the Queen's poo, I also reckon there's a more cost effective (and space saving) alternative in the Roland Cube AND it has effects on it. If you're starting out and are on a budget I reckon it's great value for money. They are also a breeze to operate!

tonerider

DonovanB wrote Redant I think you need to tell us more about this amp.

Andre Meyer wrote That is that digital effects/multi-effects will NEVER sound good when plugged directly into the front of a guitar amp but they generally sound a whole lot better when plugged into a mixing desk with cab emulations on and so forth.
au contraire... Never say Never.... I had my gt8 into a Fender Bassman and it sounded pretty cool to me. Currently I run it straight into the Vox VT50 and guess what? sounds cool again. remember you don't HAVE to use the pre amp or even every available effect on it, just what you need.

I tried putting it through the Effects loop and, unless you are going to use a lot of cables and the 4 cable method then you are wasting your time cos the distortion/drive sounds TERRIBLE through the effects loop.

While I do think valve amps are the Queen's poo, I also reckon there's a more cost effective (and space saving) alternative in the Roland Cube AND it has effects on it. If you're starting out and are on a budget I reckon it's great value for money. They are also a breeze to operate!

Hi DonovanB. I gotta tell you (without trying to be pretentious) , I've done sessions where players have used (or attempted to use) GT's and man - they just don't cut it going into an amp. If YOU get sounds that's good to your ears then that's just fantastic, but generally they just don't do it in the pro environment. DI yes, and great for a duo or trio in a small live environment where they're playing into the desk, but not into an amp. Even standard Protools guitar plugins sound a whole lot better in a studio than any GT ever can.

As for going into the power amp only (through using the effects loop), remember if you're only using overdrive/distortion it will sound like garbage if you're not using the EQ of the associated pre-amp as well. This is why I've suggested looking at these 2 youtube overviews. These units give you the ability to shape the tone of the overdrive/distortion tone circuits before going into the poweramp section of a guitar amp. Maybe this kind of setups will be way over the heads of players who just like a few stomp boxes on the floor. They'll probably get a whole lot better sound too!

Your ideas about the Cube is very valid and good though. I'm just wondering what sort of budget redant is looking at? ?

DonovanB

Andre Meyer wrote but generally they just don't do it in the pro environment.

ouch...

A lot of people use them and get very good results out of it. now if you can prove to me that they don't cut it in the pro environment I'll eat mine. But until you do, I use mine in studio more than enough and It works very well at gigs (except the one time it broke :'( ) and I've never been booed off stage once...

These units give you the ability to shape the tone of the overdrive/distortion tone circuits before going into the poweramp section of a guitar amp. Maybe this kind of setups will be way over the heads of players who just like a few stomp boxes on the floor. They'll probably get a whole lot better sound too!

That can be done on a GT8, you just need to look a little deeper. AFAIK Overdrive in an effects loop is always a bad idea.

It all boils down to how much effort you put into it, or how much you are willing to put into it. Not everyone has time to decipher a complicated multifx and I really don't blame them.

Your ideas about the Cube is very valid and good though. I'm just wondering what sort of budget redant is looking at? ?

My rule of thumb is to always assume budget is small. Even if it's not relevant to redant's situation it is very likely someone else who does have a small budget will read this thread and either see a good, cheaper option, or if it is omitted lose hope and may stop playing altogether.

Gearhead wrote @Red-ANT: Rock on, read, listen, play, admire, copy, modify, sell, buy and play some more. Then back to top.

This sums it up though. We will make mistakes with the gear we buy. I know we intend to get it right the first time but we will always grow as people and musicians and so our gear will have to grow with us

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