How to amplify flamenco guitars without altering the acoustic sound

Conrad

Hi Guys

The 2 new flamenco guitars I bought have no pickups installed so I am considering the following methods:

1. 2 decent Rode NT3 condenser microphones.
Cons: Alot of time to set up for performance and very sensitive to the environment which causes feeding etc. This happened on Sunday and I might still need therapy ?

2. The LR Baggs dual source which puts a condenser mic inside the body.
Pros: I have one of these in another nylon string and hardly any problems. This delivers a very faithful representation of he acoustic sound.

Possible Cons: The pre amp must sit inside the body on the back of the guitar and a hole has to be drilled for the jack input.
Here is the question: Would this alter the acoustic sound? See that worries me because the acoustic sound on the Raimundo is exactly the way I want it.
This is the link: http://www.lrbaggs.com/dualsource.htm.

I hope this makes sense and I hope someone can help me. Keira also suggested the IBeam which I think will have the same cons as the dual source?

Kind regards
Conrad Pienaar

Bob-Dubery

Conrad wrote Hi Guys

The 2 new flamenco guitars I bought have no pickups installed so I am considering the following methods:

1. 2 decent Rode NT3 condenser microphones.
Cons: Alot of time to set up for performance and very sensitive to the environment which causes feeding etc. This happened on Sunday and I might still need therapy ?

I don't know about these specific microphones, but I do know, from talking to musicians who like to play miced up rather than plugged in, that some microphones have a control that allows you to control the arc through which the mic picks up sound.

These guys were telling me that they wanted to to the old bluegrass thing - everybody stands around one mic, and when it's your turn for a solo you "turn yourself up" by taking a step forward. They tried this and it was a mess because of all the audience noise that was picked up. Then they read the fine manual and found out that you can put the mic into various modes 360 degrees (the default, which they used and didn't work), 180 degrees or 90 degrees.

2. The LR Baggs dual source which puts a condenser mic inside the body.
Pros: I have one of these in another nylon string and hardly any problems. This delivers a very faithful representation of he acoustic sound.

Possible Cons: The pre amp must sit inside the body on the back of the guitar and a hole has to be drilled for the jack input.
Here is the question: Would this alter the acoustic sound? See that worries me because the acoustic sound on the Raimundo is exactly the way I want it.

TWO holes. But I don't think the one matters too much. That hole is the one for the jack and it would normally go through the part of the guitar where the end pin would be. I don't see that having a large impact on the sound. The other hole is a very small one that has to be drilled in the bridge for the under saddle transducer to be fitted.

I haven't noticed any significant change of unplugged sound on the Larrivee to which I had this system fitted.

However your concerns are valid. I'd have a chat first with a guy with experience in fitting these systems and ask him all your questions.

I hope this makes sense and I hope someone can help me. Keira also suggested the IBeam which I think will have the same cons as the dual source?

I know or know of several players who use the I-beam. AFAIK there is still some drilling involved on guitars with no bridge pins, and what I have heard is that placement is critical with this pickup. It also seems to suit some players better than others. My friend Mike Burger gets a very good sound out of an I-beam equipped guitar (he has two), but I can't get it to work for me.

This is a non-trivial decision. I'd bounce the idea around with players and techs whose opinions you would respect.

Read the manuals available on the Baggs web site. They will give you an idea of what fitting entails.

Fitting and experience in fitting does, I think, count for a lot. So if a player has a system that they are happy with then ask who fitted it.

Bob-Dubery

Another thing you maybe should consider with pickup systems is power. If you go passive (no amplification) you will probably need to run some kind of external pre-amp. This is not necessarily a bad thing as some of the pre-amps on offer are very good, but it's a piece of kit to lug around. If you go for "active" systems with their own pre-amp then a battery has to go somewhere. WIth the Baggs systems this usually goes into a little bag that attaches inside the guitar with a piece of velcro.

These systems are usually thoroughly tested and if the "guinea pig" players reported back that the velcro was killing the sound of the guitar then that feedback would be taken into consideration. But still ask the questions so that you can settle the issue in your own mind.

AlanRatcliffe

Mics are the most natural, but placement is critical, feedback is an issue at any kind of volume (and more likely with better mics) and there will always be some room sound. The tone of the room itself is captured, and that's not always a good thing - venue owners have different priorities to performers.

Don't worry about sonic change with any of the pickup systems - as long as nothing is attached to the top, they have little to no effect. The Dual Source is the best choice IMO, especially if you are going to play using golpes. Less natural sounding than a mic, but will work in any venue.

Keira will have a lot to say on this subject... and you should listen to her on it.

Conrad

@Alan Thank you. I am just wondering though (in total ignorance I admit) if the geometry of the body of the guitar will not be spoiled and affect the projection or sound? Because now sound waves will bounce off of a non flat surface where the pre-amp is placed. I am just asking though, I know nothing about these things. I am just SO afraid my attack or clarity is affected.

AlanRatcliffe

Not so you'd be able to hear the change in any normal playing situation.

Reflections are the least of your worries - consider that with the changed volume of the box, the resonant frequencies also change (but only by a couple of Hz or so) or that with an undersaddle pickup, there is a different (usually synthetic) material between your saddle and your bridge (but chosen to have the least effect on the tone), or the weight of a pickup like an I-Beam added to the underside of the bridge (not an issue - the bridge is basically a null point). However each of these effects is minuscule and while they do add up, the result is still so small that only the keenest ear in the most critical listening environment will be able to discern any change at all (if even then). The changes you experience from the varied acoustic environments you play in or even from moving around the same room are many orders of magnitude higher than the effect fitting a pickup will have on your tone.

Conrad

Thanks Alan & Bob

Keira-WitherKay

hi ya conrad ... yes we share the same quest .... being "natural unplugged sound that can be amplified successfully to play bigger rooms.......we have already discussed this in pvt if i recall.........

ok so my experience and i been on this quest with 4 guitars and various combinations OF PICKUPS AND MANY DIFFERENT MIC'S TOO in last 12 months............

1st relavation was pick ups and i mean all of them .... DO NOT recreate the natural sound........ so forget endless experimentation if you not flexible in adapting to a slightly different tonality ......... all it will do is cost you thousands of rands and all with the same result..........

2nd no matter how great some steel strings sound with certain setups.......... nylons have a different set of nuances that don;'t seem to survive having a pickup in the signal path ...........

3 ok so that leaves mic's as the only answer....... and YES thats the truth cos check out Paco de lucia /vincente amigo...and almost any top end flamenco and classical guitarist will use a microphone..NOT a pickup EVER ........ so that says it all ....... if pickups did do the job the big names would use em......... cos speak to any sound engineer any mic no matter how good even a top end DPA mic which costs about 20 - 30 K will feedback and casuse issues...... and i recently spoke to a sound engineer who does international acts in europe and asked the same question re "paco's mic" and he said he would say it's a top end mic designed for guitar which it is paco favours the DPA .... but he said it's not a mic straight into a desk but through prob a whole rack of top end equalisers/compressors/gates/feedback destroyers ( and not one but many ) and all this gear also needs to be top end cos if it does not pass true signal the sound will be coloured due to the A/D coverters in all the gear and potentially add lots of noise too .......

so really us 'working class" musicians are pretty much between a "rock and a hard place" i definietely know it does not make good biz sense to
spend 50K - 80K or more for a setup that earns you a few K a show in returns......

ok so yes i too have used the dual system ..with an Undersaddle pick up and a condenser ... they are super prone to feed back cos it;'s the condenser that gives the natural sound........ and if you set it too loud and even move the guitar a hint out of the "safe zone" the feedback comes howling in ....... so personally i found that unless you favoured the undersaddle sound (which i find on a nylon to be too direct and toneless) and just a hint of 'air ' from the condenser they work ok ... but it is a 80 % undersaddle and 20% condenser type mix ...

ok and i have installed LR baggs Ibeams in 2 of my guitars ...... cos i too did some bigger festivals where the volume required just meant the condenser mic could not cope..........

ok and my opinion on the ibeam from LR baggs ...is as i said in previous posts . the best of the evils....... it's still a trade off and the advantage of the ibeam is it is more feedback resistant ...... by far than a dual system and you don't get that direct under the saddle type sound....... also being attatched under the bridge it makes the top active which you will find the undersaddle types ( without a condenser ) do not ....... or at least not active enough for flamenco and again if you need the percussive top sound in a dual system you will have to increase the condenser balance and again get more feedback

is LR baggs ibeams the answer . NO cos they close but still not good as a mic......... and they very different in different guitars....... my 40yr old vintage yamaha has an ibeam and it sounds way better than the top end CG171 which also has the same system installed by same tech
so the guitar makes a huge diffence........as we know........

and yeah actually last night i shot some video for my new website......... which will be up and running soon..... and i used the condenser mic rather than the i beams and it sounded fabulous ... to my ears ... not seen the video yet ..... but for my pro gigs i mostly play loud enough that i need the ibeam to avoid the feedback issues .......... and after using the ibeam so much my ears were so used to the ibeam sound from the live gigs. they were totally suprised again last night on how great and how much better the mic'd sound is..........

so yeah and last point your PA/guitar amp setup is important ....... as certain speakers favour the nylon guitar frequency's more........ and some definitely sound more natural than others......... that too need experimentation ......;

same as microphones.......... i sat in a store and directly A/B'd every condenser in the store........ and actually found the better ones for live use were some (NOT ALL) of the cheaper ones ....and WHY ? the studio tech( i had all the staff there passing comment ..so this was not just my view) told me he thought it was because the cheaper mics are LESS sensitive....... and have LESS of a broad sensitivity range meaning that the NYLON guitar frequency is situated between lower mid and lower top end and cheaper ( well mid priced) mic's responds almost as well as the better mic's in this range ..........cos the bits you paying the extra money for is actually the extended range and sensitivity ...and this is not needed and the reduced sensitivity just means less feedback........... so something to think about ........

so yes keen to see what you settle on........... but there's pro's and cons to every method........ and if you want volume ..some kind of internal pickup is essential............ but it comes at a loss of tone....... and lets face it ... you ,I and the other nylon string 'freaks" will tell the differnce but NO oNe else will......... and they will sooner winge about your bad sound cos of feedback than cos of not getting natural tone....... but i would ... but thats just me heheheheh

and as alan and bob said the ibeam requires only a hole the size of the endpin in the block at back of guitar and DOES NOT AFFECT the sound one little bit ..unless you have incredible ears ....but i had it done to 2 guitars recently and not noticed a thing ... and all the battery pack and volume knobs are inside the soundhole on velcro and double sided tape so only one hole...........

AND BTW MARK MAINGARD INSTALLS IBEAMS INTO HIS CLASSICALS AND IF IT ALTERED THE TONE BY DRILLING THE HOLE AT THE BACK I'M SURE HE WOULD NOT DO IT

OK hope that helps ......... but no direct answer............

AND REMEMBER WE TALKING ABOUT "LIVE" USE ONLY ........ IN A STUDIO I WOULD MIC IT 100% OF THE TIME NO ARGUMENT

Conrad

@Keira Thank you very much for all that input.
The guys at LR Baggs again reckon I should be happier with the dual source than the IBeam but only because I am playing flamenco influenced material.
By the way, I think you might really like Raimundo I got for flamenco tone.
Oi....I have alot of thinking to do.