Copyright with Samro

Manfred-Klose · 2008-07-11T00:10:44+00:00

Has any one in this forum ever made use of copyright with samro. I just want to copyright my songs, but the samro thing is a bit complicated, you must be accepted at samro to register songs? is this true? i found a link on this forum for something similar: http://www.guitarforum.co.za/index.php?topic=42.0

Renesongs

I would not discourage anyone from joining SAMRO as it would probably do you more harm than good. My experience has shown that SAMRO seems to have a trade union influence on broadcasting music in SA, (If you don't belong to the union you don't get work/played). However, SAMRO is not Santa Clause. Don't be fooled by the "non-profit organization" bit. Old Mutual's company charter defines it as a mutual society not for profit, (it just depends how you define and report profit).

SAMRO derives it's income from the collection commission, If you are Danny K or Mandosa they will be very vigilant and make sure that no one openly plays your music without payolla. If you are Johannes Seep from Riviersonderend they will be less vigilant about your rights. I applied for membership in December 1991 and in August 2002 I received confirmation that "your Application is due for submission to SAMRO's Board of Directors for formal election to Candidate Membership" by which time my music for dance had been performed in Morocco, Germany and New York not to mention most of South Africa.

SAMRO, IMhO, is an inefficient, possibly understaffed, organization that needs to have it's butt kicked from time to time so they don't fall asleep on the job. Unfortunately South African's are renowned for there complacency and musicians... well lets say we just not business people, and probably poorer but happier that we not ?

ColinS

Renesongs:
SAMRO relies on documentation - from users of music as well as from composers.
When you apply for membership, the simple rule for acceptance is that your music must be making enough money to warrant the cost of administering it.

So, let's say that you register some works, but you yourself fail to notify SAMRO that the works have been broadcast or performed live. Let's also say that the broadcaster or venue owner has failed to notify SAMRO of the performances. How is SAMRO supposed to know that your works have ever been played? The only reason that you were finally considered for membership is most likely because some documentation finally reached SAMRO.

I know of many composers who applied for membership, had their music on a big TV series and were full members within months - because of the cue sheets having reached SAMRO right away.

I'm not saying they're perfect - they can be slow on certain issues and as Chairman of CASA, I channel plenty problems from members directly to SAMRO. My experience is that these problems are resolved fairly quickly. If you or anyone else here has specific issues to report, send them to me and I will do my best to assist:
exco@composers.co.za

Regards
Colin Shapiro
Chairman - Composers Association of SA (CASA)
www.composers.co.za

Manfred-Klose

Thanks colin, i know understand how to appraoch the SAMRO thing.
Is there any rights involved in music videos? if its a popular video , any royalties?

The Five easy steps to follow(Some tips for beginners):
1.Contacts
2.Contacts
3.Contacts
4.Contacts
5.Experience

Basically you must bent down or sit on your knees to get something done, sorry some irony......

Renesongs

If you consider the fact that it would be pretty much impossible for thousands of individual composers to try to track down the usage of all the works and then get money from the users, then it's clear that SAMRO provides a vital service at a reasonable rate.

Let's also say that the broadcaster or venue owner has failed to notify SAMRO of the performances. How is SAMRO supposed to know that your works have ever been played?

Sorry no cigar ???

ColinS

Manfred Klose wrote Is there any rights involved in music videos? if its a popular video , any royalties?

Whenever your music is either broadcast (or performed), you are in line for royalties. So, if you have a music video which is broadcast several times a week for a few months, you'll get (or should get) performance royalties each time. The difficulty is this: have the performances all been logged? If the TV channel or program producer has not done their work, you may not get a cent.

You can assist by trying to check where your music has been used. Notify SAMRO wherever possible and if they don't get the corresponding cue sheets from the broadcaster, then at least they have something to follow up on.

This is a sad fact of life in the music business. Your 1st occupation is making music. Your 2nd occupation is chasing up on all the paperwork. ☹

Regards - Colin

Renesongs

OK enough with the SAMRO bashing from my side - I think this thread has made it clear that Musicians suck at business and are fairly sceptical of any bunch of "suits" collection money on their behalf. SAMRO do a fairly adequate job, hey they even pay you a pension when you are too old to shred any more ?.

If we were really smart we would form a musicians union and look after our own interests. Imagined if we could picket and boycott venues that pay musicians badly, even set minimum wages, put greedy music stores out of business, close down limewire and youtube, yes we could rule the world - oops I think I went a bit far there :-[

Gray

use the old trick of sending yourself a copy (either as written music or a recording) as a sealed and registered mail

Just out of curiosity could you do this via e-mail? :-[

Renesongs

Gray wrote Just out of curiosity could you do this via e-mail? :-[

Not AFAIK, emails can be edited and ISP do not keep email transmission records for long enough. However if you save and at least one take before the final recording you can prove "work in progress" which is an indisputable proof of copyright unless of course the other claimants have the same "work in progress" - then you have a costly trial.

Gray

Thanks Rene. ?

I figured it wouldn't be that simple.

Renesongs

No - it is much simpler than most people think - here let me give you a Noddy guide.

1. You have an idea, you record it (on paper, tape, or computer file). The idea belongs to you
2. Someone claims that your idea is theirs and they have the same record of it.
3. You need to show the process that led you to the idea to prove that it is yours.

In summary If you have a good idea record it somewhere and keep it safe, In the unlikely event that you recorded it absolutely perfectly the first time, record a 2nd not so perfect one to show work in progress. Never delete or throw away ALL your rough notes or draught recordings.

Registering a work with SAMRO does not irrefutably confer copyright to you, you could be submitting someone else's unpublished work. SAMRO merely collects royalties on your behalf should others decide to use that work.

Gray

SAMRO deducts its running costs from the royalties it collects and distributes the balance. The average deduction is 22-24%

Is there a minimum or maximum percentage they can take for their running costs?

ColinS

Gray wrote
SAMRO deducts its running costs from the royalties it collects and distributes the balance. The average deduction is 22-24%
Is there a minimum or maximum percentage they can take for their running costs?

SAMRO is a member of CISAC which is the International Confederation of Collection Societies. CISAC sets guidelines, one of which is that deductions should not be over 30%. Not all societies conform, for example a newly-formed society in a so-called 3rd world economy may struggle with startup costs and could be forced to deduct more for the first few years. Another example is SARRAL here in SA, which has been using between 40-80% of the royalties they have collected over the past years to cover their running costs.

SAMRO's deduction is considered quite fair. Generally speaking, performance royalties are more expensive to administer than mechanicals.

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