doc-phil
I've recently discovered the importance of theory as a tool for better guitar playing. I used to think it was a waste of time, but I was living in ignorance! I've been playing guitar for about 6 years now and in that time I've amassed 6 years of technique and 0 years of theory. So I'm really starting at the beginning with musical theory. So far I've just learnt all the major scales and have been practicing constructing simple leads and solos using them individually and combining them occassionally. My question is however, how do you know where on the fretboard you can solo in relation to what the rhythm guitarist is playing? I know it all depends what key you're in; so if your band is playing in the key of C say, would I be able to play any major scale I want, as long as the root note is C (i.e. the 8th fret on the low E string). By this I mean, the shape of the scale you are playing should never have a note played lower than the 8th fret on the E string (if playing in the key of C)?
Also, how can you tell what key you are playing in without asking? ? Should I be able to identify the key just by ear?
Hope this makes sense. ?
ezietsman
I'm in the same boat pretty much. So the Gurus will help more than one guy here ?
Rob-dos
Hey hey there is alot of write up on this but most of it just confused me because people get too technical for beginners and confuse them
so il lay it to you in the easiest way i possibly can.. i wish people did that to me but instead i got complex algorithms haha
if someone is playing a song, lets say 12 bar blues and they playing 3 chords, lets take A, D and E
what i suggest you then do is you play some licks in each key according to the key
if you are using pentatonic scale start on the 5th fret for A, the 10th fret for D and the 12 or 1st fret for E.. mess about with and you should come to find one that sounds best
and there you go, you are in key and you can go up from the 1st to the 21st fret as much as you like
You should in theory be able to choose any of the keys you prefer for your solo and play that key for the rest of your lead throughout the song
You can even play the seperate keys throughout the song as it progresses
Try this: play any rhythm with the bar chord over the A (5th fret) D (10TH) and E (12th) and then start your solo on one of those and there you go it should sound great
what you can then do is when someone is playing normal chords up at the nut, just remember where all your keys are for your scales (the low E (fat string) tells you that)
and you can just do what you did above
What i suggest as better than that is what i do.. let the person play the rhythm or you just play it and try remember it and then start a solo in every key, start from the top and move down
i do this and you often find many different keys which actually sound decent, remember these and just play around with them
eventually you will know what sounds good and where and when and you will leave all the theory behind because you ears will outgrow what your logic tells you
what will happen is he will be playing you will be looking for a key and suddenly you will find a note that sounds good and move on down and bam you both making music before you know what has happened, thats the best way ?
hope this helps, if it doesnt im sure someone else can give you more beef to the skin and bones i gave you ?
people have this idea that great song writers would hear a rhythm and just start dropping the solo off the fly and wham bam thank you maam
this is not true, you dont need to be able to identify the key by ear.. solo's are usually a process, you sit there, you figure out where you are whats going on, and you mess about for a decent amount of time until you are where you want to be and then you carry on
some bands can do it pretty easily because they already know which keys they like and which work for them, then thats a different story
sit and listen, that is the best thing you can do, theory will only get you so far, its all about listening to what sounds good
Listen to Black Dog by Led Zeppelin for an example, for most of the song the lick is in key and then later on he goes totally off key but it SOUNDS AMAZING!
this shows theory can only get you so far because it doesnt account for the extraordinary or the amazing, just the formula
another reason why this song is a great example is because the lick is out of sync with the rhythm of the song and the timing of that song is crazy and against theory, there is no turnaround like there should be.. listen to the lick, you can maybe hear a note that shouldnt even be there... theory only gets you so far
haha just realised im supposed to be helping you with theory not telling you its limited haha
doc-phil
Thanks a lot Rob dos! I appreciate the post. It made a lot of sense. One question regarding the first bit of your post about the 12 bar blues in A, D and E. Can you play the same scale, in the same position over all three of those chords? Cos what if there is a rapid chord progression, I wouldn't have to then shift scale positions every time the rhythm guitarist goes from A to D to E etc etc would I?
Rob-dos
no no that would just be crazy ? haha
you can just stick with the same key for the whole song.. choose which one sounds the best... i would recommend doing that and then maybe the odd lick in the other key to give it flavour...
or you can stay in one key for a half the song or whatever then move up/down the neck and then go on with another key and stay in that one if it works..
what i sometimes do is with the pentatonic is i move from the first position (the first scale thing) back to the third position (the third scale in the minor pentatonic scale) and i turn that into the first position because they sound similar to me so i can get away with a key change and no one even notices ? maybe try that but stay in one key for a bit first
so if i am on the 9th fret i remember ok 9th fret, so minus 5 will take me to the 4th fret and il take a jump or il just move along the scale till i arrive at the 4th fret or anywhere on the 3rd scale
Hendrix is one who jumps keys alot, you will hear that when the bassist changes key he might do the same and you sit there trying to copy what
hes doing and you just like wait im no longer in key where did this man go!?! especially at turnarounds he will do something funny..
but thats hendrix 8)
Fingerpicker
If you have DSTV tune it to the Blues music channel 133. Blues is easy to jam to because you know where the chords are going.
I jam with the numbers that come up. Most of them (9 out of 10) are I IV V chords , work well with the blues scale/minor pentatonic scale.
After a while you can pick up the key within a few seconds by going up the sixth string until you find where the best tonal fit is and jamming along from there. Just use one shape of the scale to start with. Learn the other shapes later.
Good luck.
PeteM
There is much said about scales and modes on the forum - all pitch related topics. To me, there is more to music than this one aspect - there's, tempo, timing, phrasing, expression, form and structure as well - these are as important to know, understand and feel in creating "solos", which seems to be the ultimate objective of many of the threads of this nature.
There is a level of self-satisfaction in discovering all of these yourself, but can lead to years of frustration.
There is also a plethora of material on the internet, which can be equally frustrating not to mention confusing whilst sifting through pretentious muso/geek speak.
If you are serious about progressing in your guitar playing and overall understanding/discovery of music, I suggest that you find a good music teacher who can identify your needs and help you to reach your goals.
Fingerpicker
Well said PeteM.
I have spent the last 18 months working through two very good books on music theory (fine time to start at 58!) and have found that I now am starting to understand what the hell I'm doing. I am now able to explain in musical terms what is happening in my music - just beginner level, mind you. I have really enjoyed it and instead of trying different things by ear or trial and error, I am now able to work out what should work on paper then transpose it to the guitar. It's like suddenly having glasses for the first time, reading magazines like Guitar Techniques you are aware of the bigger picture and understand questions and answers more clearly.
The books are Contemporary music theory (Harmony and Theory) Part I and II. by Mark Harrison (Hal Leonard) ISDN numbers 0-7935-9881-8 and 0-7935-9882-6
2 X 350+ pages of A3 with well explained detail and exhaustive number of examples for each section.
My goal last year was to learn the Major scale and Minor pentatonic over the whole neck which has been a worthwhile exercise. I am now working on my phrasing, trying not to sound like I'm playing scales is not easy.
But at some point the rubber has to meet the road, so you pick up the guitar to jam with someone or play along with 133, pick up the key as quickly as you can, use the scale as a guideline, see what other notes work and what doesn't, play and listen.
Every few months I go for a lesson with Tony Russel in Joburg. He used to play with Johnny Fourie a lot. I ask him a question like "what is the significance of diminished chords?" He spoke for two hours demonstrating points with his guitar. As you can't remember all that he would say, I record the lessons, put them on a CD and listen to them while driving or waiting for someone. It's amazing the percentage of good advice that you forget by not doing this.
Squonk
Very good thread
I am also at the crossroads, I have been widdling for too long. Learning and trying to teach myself from guitar books and the internet.
I have to be realistic and say that I need help getting to the next level, and as Pete says there is so much more to guitar than scales and modes etc.
Seems as if a good teacher is the way forward ?
Heath
Ok let me askthis question , cos this is something i have never understood
say we playing the 12 bar blues
in E ,so the chord progression would be E A B .
when the rhythm is playing the E chord i would assume the scale i play would be the E scale , when the rhytm changes to A , does the scale you play over it change to A .
Fingerpicker
Stay in the I chord (E in this case) and play in any one of the positions (boxes) of the I chord across the fretboard.
The IV chord works (A in this case). The V chord - in the case of 12 bar blues - you're not there for long, don't worry.
But hey, I'm just a poor acoustic fingerpicker, so what do I know.
Wait till the 20-29 year old ibano-strato superkids get hold of this advice!
Rob-dos
Channel 133 is a great idea iv never thought about that, there is some solid solid I IV V rhythm blues going on down there..
in case setting up in the lounge irritating everyone is your house except for you is a problem then this site might help you out
it has free backing tracks which you can put on repeat and you just go and go and go.. start in the first position and try get all around
http://www.guitarbackingtrack.com/search.php
maybe try the slow blues at first.. you will come out with great feel and good timing ?
this is a 100% legal so dont stress.. try download one at a time also, being free they dont have the best server in the world...
Squonk
Another good ear trainer is the TV ?
I have for years been playing while watching TV, This has taught me pick out the key and jam along with the soundtrack or adverts etc. Or even the endless reruns of Katie Melua etc. I usually pick out the key by playing the note on the low E or A string and try my limited scales etc from there.
Doesn't work well with the Wife though ?, She has enough of the Pentatonic scale. And I am banned from playing during her programs!
Bob-Dubery
Squonk wrote:
Another good ear trainer is the TV ?
I have for years been playing while watching TV, This has taught me pick out the key and jam along with the soundtrack or adverts etc. Or even the endless reruns of Katie Melua etc. I usually pick out the key by playing the note on the low E or A string and try my limited scales etc from there.
I do that sometimes. Like you I find it's not always appreciated. What can be interesting is to try this "play along" with non-rock shows. I used to try it with
Strictly Come Dancing where they have a biggish band, with horns and other "proper" instruments playing live in the studio. That kind of band tends to play in keys that are not common in rock (or are achieved by the use of capos) because they don't fall easily on the guitar.
Keira-WitherKay
quote from Bob's post
I do that sometimes. Like you I find it's not always appreciated. What can be interesting is to try this "play along" with non-rock shows. I used to try it with Strictly Come Dancing where they have a biggish band, with horns and other "proper" instruments playing live in the studio. That kind of band tends to play in keys that are not common in rock (or are achieved by the use of capos) because they don't fall easily on the guitar.
yeah the reason for what Bob call "odd" keys is that brass instruments are designed to play at their best in Bb and Eb thats why you find much of the jazz standard original keys will be Eb rather than E ...... or Bb instead of A .......it's for the benefit of the brass section....... and by rights they were in the ensembles long before guitar became popular even in jazz..... whereas rock and blues players stuck to the easier A or E predominantly ..which meant they avoided the more "complex" chords.....cos the jazz guitarists were well schooled in music and had no worries with any key ... but however most of the 50/60 rock and roll guitarists were all from garage bands with little or no musical training ..... so they kept it simple....... and nothing wrong with that either ..........
Keira-WitherKay
guys the best thing to do is find a tutor............. explaining theory to people who don't understand it fully is really tough in text....... and you sure to miss something............ there are experienced tutors all over the country just contact one and musical theory can be made simple in a few lessons............
cos in reality theory is like building a house of cards in the way that if your foundation is not there or not solid no matter what techniques you learn after they will always be unstable .....and even collapse like the house of cards because the foundation was not secure enough.............
and you'll be surprised how easy it is if you learn theory in the right sequence........ as each step builds on the next ..... and the downside is if you miss a step you find you can't grasp the theory 10 steps higher...........
so yeah my advice is learn it from a tutor ( and be careful many tutors teach students songs from tab but neglect theory.... so find a tutor who understands theory .......... a scary fact is i actually gave theory lessons to a pretty established guitar tutor in jhb a while back so don't assume all tutors are proficient in theory many play well and can teach songs well....... and to many students thats all they want ... )
Heath
i am seriously considering getting lessons from richard pryor , his rates seem very reasonable , or trying to find another teacher here in cpt to teach theory ...........
3ight8all
doc-phil wrote:
Thanks a lot Rob dos! I appreciate the post. It made a lot of sense. One question regarding the first bit of your post about the 12 bar blues in A, D and E. Can you play the same scale, in the same position over all three of those chords? Cos what if there is a rapid chord progression, I wouldn't have to then shift scale positions every time the rhythm guitarist goes from A to D to E etc etc would I?
You can play the same position througout the entire song. The thing that really counts, well for me at least, is the note that you resolve on. So for instance...if the rhythm section is playing an A chord, then you would want to resolve(end your lick) on an A note. Then they move to the D chord and you play another lick and resolve on D etc.
Fingerpicker
Quoting PeteM
"there's, tempo, timing, phrasing, expression, form and structure as well - these are as important to know, understand and feel in creating "solos", which seems to be the ultimate objective of many of the threads of this nature"
Perhaps we might get together for a chat on the above at some time. Will let you know when I'm heading for Durbs next.
Seventhson
I am lucky my guitarist in my band is clued up on theory so he is helping me along.
