LR Baggs Dual Source system

Bob-Dubery

I just got my Larrivee back from McGibbon's. It's been in there for a pickup to be fitted. I wanted something a bit better, a bit more believable than the usual under-the-saddle system.

I discussed options with Andy. LR Baggs offer two system with dual sound sources. One is the "I-Mix" the other is the "Dual Source". Both are based around the Baggs "Active Element" system. I-Mix marries the element with the Baggs "I-Beam" transducer (that Keira recently had fitted and gave us her opinion on). This is a contact system that fits under the bridge plate. The Baggs "Dual Source" marries the under-the-saddle element with an internal condenser microphone. In the Baggs system this is not mounted on a goose-neck; it is enclosed in a little block of foam rubber and is mounted with velcro inside the back of the guitar. After some musing, discussion and googling I opted for the "Dual Source" system.

The first thing I want to note about this system is that it's non-destructive, non-obtrusive (as are several other Baggs systems).

Consider this photo...

Here you can see the pre-amp/mixer module and the control unit. The "black box" is mounted inside the guitar, on the back, with velcro. The controls (volume and mix) are two little thumb wheels mounted inside the sound hole. The microphone is not visible in this shot. It's mounted inside the back and (in this case) beneath the bridge plate. The battery is installed in a little bag that can be pulled out through the sound hole. So there's no need to cut any part of the body work away.

You don't have to mount the mic beneath the bridge plate. You can experiment with placement. However Baggs recommend beneath the bridge plate and slightly towards the bass side as a default. Mark, the technician who fitted the system, said that Baggs do a lot of test installations during their development phase and he finds that you generally get the best results with their default installation. Baggs also pre-set the various controls on the black box. You can, of course, modify these but again Mark chose to go with the default settings - though one was eventually tweaked (more later).

OK... how does it sound? I made a quick recording. This is with a lead straight into my PC's sound card. I used Audacity to record but added no effects or EQ. Let me just explain what's going on here. The system was installed in mono mode. In this mode the under-the-saddle element is always on, and the "mix" control progressively adds more of the microphone to the signal. In this recording I start off with the mix set for element only. Then I pause and dial more mic in. You can hear the colour and depth that this adds.

http://www.box.net/shared/t3g617ioje

One of the tweakable controls on the black box is the microphone gain. By default this is set to 7. Mark took this back down to 3 at installation time. After testing we decided to turn it down a little more so that mix control would offer finer control.

We found that you actually don't want a lot of mic. The sweet spot, as Mark has the system set up, is round about 1/3 travel of the mix control. With too much mic things started sounding echoey - this was not feedback, it started to sound like the guitar was being played in a big empty hall. So you don't need to go all the way with the mic - you want just enough to add some depth and air to the signal from the element.

We were testing with a very nice AER amp, but even straight into the sound card you can hear the difference that the mic makes.

The system is easy to operate too. Just the two controls in the sound hole - master volume and mix.

There is a phase switch on the black box which would be easily reached with a screwdriver or knitting needle. This puts the mic out of phase with the element. The default is in phase, but the switch (easily reachable if the system is installed by somebody sensible) is there in case you are struggling to tame feedback.

Very nice system. Just what I wanted - sounds a lot more like an acoustic guitar.

This can also be fitted in nylon string guitars.

For more details see http://www.lrbaggs.com/dualsource.htm

Bob-Dubery

PS It was very nice to meet Lance AKA "Tokai" whilst I was at McGibbons. He was dropping some more Love Rocks off at the shop. Really gorgeous they are too.

Bob-Dubery

I just RTFM. They say that in mono mode the mic tends to interact more with the element and can give more boominess and bass - this may be why tweaking the mic gain was useful in this case. My system is running in mono.

Tokai-SA

Nice meeting you this morning, Bob.

Your guitar tones coming out of the sound room sounded great...nice system you got there.

Heath

I am looking at putting a system in my cort now ..... May i ask ball park what i am looking at ........ I was looking at the fishman powerjack which also is a dual system .

Bob-Dubery

Tailon. wrote: I am looking at putting a system in my cort now ..... May i ask ball park what i am looking at ........ I was looking at the fishman powerjack which also is a dual system .

As always you should shop around. If you have a particular shop that you have a good relationship with and who will give you a discount then go to them. You're looking in the 2500 to 3000 ballpark with the installation.

Bob-Dubery

Just to clarify... that price is for the entire system - the under-saddle pickup, the microphone, the electronics and all the other bits and bobs.

Heath

Still gotta raise a relationship with my local music store sadly , i will probably install it myself. Only way we learn . I dont want a eq or anything on the guitar itself .... Dont wanna cut into it (its so pretty) but from the recordings its what i am after.

Bob-Dubery

Tailon. wrote: Still gotta raise a relationship with my local music store sadly , i will probably install it myself. Only way we learn . I dont want a eq or anything on the guitar itself .... Dont wanna cut into it (its so pretty) but from the recordings its what i am after.

You'll have to drill into the bridge to install the pickup. They give you diagrams showing what has to be done.

Keira-WitherKay

zohn wrote: Sounds like a nice system you've got there. If I have it right, that is the same system Seagull used years ago before they resorted to their own in-house Quantum system. I have the I-mix in my one guitar and love it.
FYI, check out the latest system from Baggs due available later this year - click on "hear it" as well.
http://www.lrbaggs.com/anthem/index.htm

mmm checked this out ...fabulous concept ..if it works i will install one.......... cos the undersaddles don't suit my tastes at all... and the condensers do feed back ...and i have at the moment 2 guitars fitted with LR Baggs ibeams which i have come to see as the lesser of the evils........as in the best available and closest to a mic'd sound but i'm still not 100% happy with it ....... but this tru mic anthem system looks like it's what i would want ......... mmm any landed locally yet ......... ???

Bob-Dubery

Keira WitherKay wrote: mmm checked this out ...fabulous concept ..if it works i will install one.......... cos the undersaddles don't suit my tastes at all... and the condensers do feed back ...and i have at the moment 2 guitars fitted with LR Baggs ibeams which i have come to see as the lesser of the evils........as in the best available and closest to a mic'd sound but i'm still not 100% happy with it ....... but this tru mic anthem system looks like it's what i would want ......... mmm any landed locally yet ......... ???

You can't even get them in the USA yet. You can pre-order, but they're not shipping yet.

Note that it still requires a UST pickup as well.

Bob-Dubery

zohn wrote:
Check these out as well... a couple of members on the Larrivee forum like them.
http://www.kksound.com/acousticguitar.html
http://www.kksound.com/trinityclassic.html

I hear good things about K&Km but that trinity system looks like a PITA with the external belt-clip pre-amp.

Plus where do you get them locally?

Conrad

I have been using a dual source for flamenco related music for almost 2 years now. It transformed my live sound into something alot more faithful to the acoustic. I haven't regretted it for a day.

Bob-Dubery

Conrad wrote: I have been using a dual source for flamenco related music for almost 2 years now. It transformed my live sound into something alot more faithful to the acoustic. I haven't regretted it for a day.

That's what I've been looking for - a more faithful, more believable sound. I am starting to get quite bothered by the UST sound, though I do think that the player and the installer make a difference.

The Dual Source, for me, is definitely a step in the right direction.

Conrad

I am in a quandary at the moment because I bought this flamenco guitar and I want no one drilling into it and I just want to use an external condenser mic but then that is a little less convenient at gigs.

Bob-Dubery

Conrad wrote: I am in a quandary at the moment because I bought this flamenco guitar and I want no one drilling into it and I just want to use an external condenser mic but then that is a little less convenient at gigs.

You'll at the very least have to have a jack put in place of the end pin - if flamenco guitars have an end pin. So there's some drilling.

If you got an iBeam fitted there would be very little drilling as that fits under the bridge plate, not under the saddle.

Take it to somebody who runs a good workshop. I don't know who that would be in your neck of the woods - but somebody on the forum will.

Conrad

I know who to use here but don't you think I'd be OK just using a decent external mic?

C

Bob-Dubery

Conrad wrote: I know who to use here but don't you think I'd be OK just using a decent external mic?

Sorry. Misunderstood your post.

IMO you need a pickup in case you end up playing a big venue with a big PA, but for many situations the mic, whilst less convenient, does sound better.

Keira-WitherKay

Conrad wrote: I know who to use here but don't you think I'd be OK just using a decent external mic?

C

hi Conrad . you know of my conversion from under saddle to condenser mic last year when i bought my vintage classical ... tone was perfect ....... but then had to install LR baggs ibeam....(cos they closest to mic'ing) .. and i only did that cos i needed to play quite big shows ..... and the mic caused problems on the 1st festival....

so in true pro fashion ...48 hrs after my bad mic'ing experience i had the ibeam installed cos for my smaller intimate 50-60 seater venues a mic was perfect ........ and in the studio it's the only option . but soon as i did the larger festivals using the condenser mic towards end of last year it causes a problem cos in those festivals one has no control ussually to the speaker placement and monitor placement ....... they just want you on and playing in 15 min do your set and leave.....

so yeah a mic is the best for true acoustic tone .....no debate.......

and if you only do shows where you play soft or have the hours to find the right speaker placement to avoid feedback you good.......

but for the likes of most of us working musicians the Ibeams and dual source type pick ups are the only option to avoid a bad sound at a show cos the engineer can't push your volume if you have feedback .... and to me the show is the most important ... more so than the tone ....... so at moment i have installed now 2x LR baggs ibeams......in 2 of my guitars ...... they not perfect but the lesser of the evils for nylon string guitar ......... and don't sound as fake and unnatural as the under saddle pick ups do ( i have a guitar fitted with that too) seems steel strings sound good with under saddle but nylons just don't cut it ..... so either a dual system or an ibeam or something that picks up the top not the saddle....since all the tone of a nylon is in the top

Bob-Dubery

X-rated Bob wrote: I just RTFM. They say that in mono mode the mic tends to interact more with the element and can give more boominess and bass - this may be why tweaking the mic gain was useful in this case. My system is running in mono.

Well last night I sat down and RT ALL TFM.

This system is very tweakable. You get a phase switch for the mic which makes quite a difference. By defaul the mic and pickup are in phase and the mic comes on quite strongly with the mix control (IMO you can actually end up with too much mic). Throw the phase switch and the effect is much more subtle. I was prepared for the cancellation in the bottom end, but less prepared for the difference in the mic response though once I thought about it this seemed like something I should have expected.

The mic still adds some "air" to things, but the effect is more subtle and you get to use a lot more of the travel on the mix pot.

Further tweaking is available via the notch filter they provide for the mic. This sweeps in a range of 100 Hz to 2kHz.

So there are lots of options here. They suggest taking a suitably long, not too sharp tool to gigs with you in case you need to tweak on the spot. But they also talk you through some options that should work well in live situations. There's a sort of default setup that should work well in most situations, but also some more sophisticated options that may or may not fit your circumstances.

EG you could use the stereo mode to keep the mic (more prone to feedback than the UST) out of the monitors but still going into the mix that the audience hears. This probably won't work at events where you share a bill and they have to switch acts quickly, but if there's the time and the equipment then this could work well. You could also use stereo mode to run FX on one channel and always have a "clean" acoustic sound that the sound man can balance against the FX. I guess you'd want to use the mic for the clean channel.

Baggs have also designed the system so that it can be used with other mics and pickups - including other brands. I don't know if you can order just the electronics, but the manual does tell you how you can use the control module with other brands of mic and with other pickups, including in-soundhole magnetic pickups. The module also has a switch that allows you to put the pickup channel into high gain mode in cases where the pickup isn't providing a big signal. So you could the guts of this system to control your own choice of pickup and mic (though they do caution against using their own I-beam with it).

Not that I plan to go down any of those routes soon. I just spent some time exploring the phase switch and the notch filter.