Vintage guitars....as investments ?

vic · 2010-01-07T15:46:48+00:00

Thought I would raise the topic on this Forum. Past few months I have seen a few vintage guits come on the market in SA. I was of the opinion at some stage t...

Vintage guitars....as investments ?

vic

Riaan wrote: But something is only an investment if you're gonna sell it some day and make a profit, right? If you have a vintage guitar with a beautiful sound, it plays like it was made for you and you love it to death, are you ever gonna sell it and make your profit?

You're right.... ☹ So I guess you buy something that you don't really like...? ? Catch 22.

Vintage-Guitar

Vintage Guitars can prove to be a fantastic Investment, but you have to buy right and know when to let them go. Certain Fender and Gibson Guitars have halved in value over the last 2 years and others have shown a steady growth. 8)

vic

Vintage Guitar wrote: Certain Fender and Gibson Guitars have halved in value over the last 2 years and others have shown a steady growth. 8)

Sure...just like the JSE. Adjustments of true value. My guess is that these will fall even lower..?

Keira-WitherKay

mmm the downside today is all the mod'ing that goes on by almost every guitarist .......... including myself ........

just yesterday i was at allbang and strummit and ronny was showing me his vintage collection of fender jaguars ..then he has this awesom hofner jazz guitar which if you look at it looks like a vintage piece worth a packet but when i asked him whats he selling it for....... he said 10K cos it's been mod'ed and some non original parts have been fitted........ he said if it was all original he would be looking at 60k .....

yeah so be carefull that 60's fender you buy from someone in cape ads...you think might be a collectors item if it's not in original condition and has been mod'ded in any way it will only have the appeal for players not collectors... and players yeah will buy it ... but never at the price a collector will......

and yeah the second hand value of instruments is very low these days since lets be honest most stores will offer huge discounts........ so that that 17k strat in their stores in reality only costs you 10k new after discount .....and which means if you see one second hand unless it's selling at 6/7k you may as well buy a new one.........so that means even if you buy a strat you will need to discount to about 40% of the retail price to sell it ...... and in reality i sometimes see gear advertised 2nd hand for prices i can get at the store.........

so yeah invest in property ...... unless you have an awesome instrument thats vintage and in original condition you will need to be lucky to make a substantial profit on anything else........

although i must say i do think there is quick money to be made by buying 2nd hand gear and reselling it when it's apparant it's a desparate sale.... then mostly it's not vintage gear but if you advertise it for a hint more you can make your money back with interest......... i just found another yamaha C40 guitar in a pawn shop in good condition for R199 it's worth R1400 new........ i can resell it for R400/R500 and double my money....... and the new buyer will still get an awesome deal......... i also done that with many fx pedals........

Bob-Dubery

Keira WitherKay wrote: just yesterday i was at allbang and strummit and ronny was showing me his vintage collection of fender jaguars ..then he has this awesom hofner jazz guitar which if you look at it looks like a vintage piece worth a packet but when i asked him whats he selling it for....... he said 10K cos it's been mod'ed and some non original parts have been fitted........ he said if it was all original he would be looking at 60k .....

yeah so be carefull that 60's fender you buy from someone in cape ads...you think might be a collectors item if it's not in original condition and has been mod'ded in any way it will only have the appeal for players not collectors... and players yeah will buy it ... but never at the price a collector will......

And the serious collectors will KNOW if it's been modified. They will look at the pots, the soldering on the pots etc etc.

One thing to do is if you are modifying, and the mods don't require major body surgery, then keep the originals and refit them if you want to sell, or at least include them as part of the deal.

The original machine heads from my Morgan are in a zip-loc bag. If I decide I want to sell (quiet in the back there! It won't be this week) then I whip the plain Gotohs off and refit the originals (Gotohs, but embossed with the Morgan logo). I also have the ebony bridge pins stored away (though that's more because I put a set of graphtec pins on to see if I can hear a difference - I can't).

Resist temptation to refinish the guitar. The original finish might get you a higher price, even if there's wear and tear. OTOH if the guitar has already been refinished and badly then a professional refinish is going to improve things, though not up to the level of having the original finish.

vic

Keira WitherKay wrote: mmm the downside today is all the mod'ing that goes on by almost every guitarist .......... including myself ........

just yesterday i was at allbang and strummit and ronny was showing me his vintage collection of fender jaguars ..then he has this awesom hofner jazz guitar which if you look at it looks like a vintage piece worth a packet but when i asked him whats he selling it for....... he said 10K cos it's been mod'ed and some non original parts have been fitted........ he said if it was all original he would be looking at 60k .....

True.......as in the Antiques market. Even a pro refret has a negative impact. a Refin destroys the value.

singemonkey

The big benefit here is knowledge. If it's something you know a heck of a lot about, it puts you in the game. Whereas some safer options might be harder because of all the catch-up you'd have to do - books for example. The great thing about South Africa's crime wave being related to 40 years of abysmal education, is that no-one breaks in and steals books ?

And this recession seems like it may make it a good time to buy, where prices are really down. The reality is that these things will continue to beat inflation - because there are more and more people, more and more brand new things being produced, and fewer and fewer old things. Add to this the decline of tone-wood stocks around the world and it's easy to see how older instruments will continue to increase in value.

If the guitar loses popularity as an instrument though, the growth will slow down a lot. Since the guitar has only been popular for a hundred years or so, who knows if the obsession will persist?

Speaking of modding, my Les Paul is an older one and more valuable than last year's sold second hand. But I'm happy to mod it. It's my guitar. It's for me, not for a future buyer. I am having difficulty deciding whether to sell the original pickups though. I hate them, and someone wants them, but it's giving up a bit of security to give up the original stock-parts, you know?

Keira-WitherKay

hey singe.... like Bob mentioned in his post about keeping the original parts of valuable instruments.......... i would definitely say keep those pickups in a plastic bag in the case .......

Banditman

singemonkey wrote: Speaking of modding, my Les Paul is an older one and more valuable than last year's sold second hand. But I'm happy to mod it. It's my guitar. It's for me, not for a future buyer. I am having difficulty deciding whether to sell the original pickups though. I hate them, and someone wants them, but it's giving up a bit of security to give up the original stock-parts, you know?

Absolutely. On all counts. I'm modding my LP to suit myself because she's the one guitar I have that won't ever be for sale.

It's the player vs collector argument, just as Bob highlighted. Assuming the player has taste & common sense, they'll do mods to improve the instrument's playability (i.e. bridge or nut replacements for better items). Collectors will want the rubbish bit because it's original. It's down to the owner: want to play & enjoy it? Stop worrying O.T.T. about top-dollar resale - keep the bits to retrofit.

tonerider

Re the original question:

There are few genuine original vintage guitars still floating around for sale in South Africa so be careful of these "vintage" guitars, especially the vintage VOS Les Pauls that are all pervasive nowadays. Most of these "vintage" guitars are no more than recreations of original models with flame & quilted tops. I've seem them traded on other local sites for between 20 & 30K. These are certainly beautiful guitars and faithful recreations but are definitely not "vintage" and it is anyone's guess as to whether they will indeed become collectible in 30 years time.

There really are only a few types of guitar that can genuinely be invested in if you can afford it. These are typically Fenders and Les Pauls that were manufactured before 1963. I really doubt if you're going to find any in South Africa and if you DO chances are that it would have been modded or upgraded in some way over the years. (this lowers collectability substantially)

Trivial: You might also want to think about making me an offer for my 1994 '59 Gibson Les Paul Standard re-issue that was actually autographed by Les Paul himself for me in 1995. AND he played a number on stage with it at his then club Fat Tuesday, down on lower 3rd Street Manhattan. I've got the photos to prove it. ?

Any vintage guitar aficionados here that can give me an educated guess as to what it's worth?

Bob-Dubery

Some real deals do pop in SA from time. I know of three original Gibson Mastertone banjos that came to light in this country. In one case the purchaser (IIRC Ricky Skaggs's banjo player) bought two plane tickets when time came for the hand over. One for the seller and one for the banjo.

There are some serious collectors of Mastertones, who have obtained copies of orders, manifests etc and they believe there may still be two more in SA.

I have heard from a usually reliable source that one of Jackson Browne's Roy Smeck Gibsons was purchased from a seller in SA.

It's not in the same league, but I met a gentleman yesterday who had just bought an early 60s Fender Jaguar, with original case, from somebody in Benoni for R1000. It had been resprayed though...

Guitars that are not truly "vintage" can still perform as investments. Especially if they have Brazilian Rosewood back and sides. Limited editions can also perform as investments. I know two guys who have limited edition Larrivee 30th anniversary models, hand made by the man himself etc etc. I'd think that they would already be able to make a profit on those.

Bob-Dubery

Looking at http://www.hughsfineguitars.co.za/ I note

A 1937 Mastertone Banjo
A 1951 Martin D18
A '62 SG
A '51 Gibson L50
A '57 Gibson Royaltone lap steel
A '57 Gibson ES125
A '61 SG
A '41 Gibson L4
A '62 Fender 6-string bass

You'd need some serious GAS money though.

vic

tonerider wrote: Re the original question:

There are few genuine original vintage guitars still floating around for sale in South Africa so be careful of these "vintage" guitars, especially the vintage NOS Les Pauls that are all pervasive nowadays. Most of these "vintage" guitars are no more than recreations of original models with flame & quilted tops. I've seem them traded on other local sites for between 20 & 30K. These are certainly beautiful guitars and faithful recreations but are definitely not "vintage" and it is anyone's guess as to whether they will indeed become collectible in 30 years time.

Trivial: You might also want to think about making me an offer for my 1994 '59 Gibson Les Paul Standard re-issue that was actually autographed by Les Paul himself for me in 1995. AND he played a number on stage with it at his then club Fat Tuesday, down on lower 3rd Street Manhattan. I've got the photos to prove it. ?

Any vintage guitar aficionados here that can give me an educated guess as to what it's worth?

NOS Les Pauls...? These are the so-called historic customshop guitars (post-'98 ?) of which there are not many in SA. No, they're certainly not vintage, but have (some) vintage specs - details of which can be found on the Les Paul forums. Your Les Paul ('94) is a prehistoric and should have an inked-on serial number starting with a 4, followed by a space and 3/4 digits.? If not, it's a run of the mill standard....prehistorics (pre-'93/4) have the short neck tenon and are equiped with 1st generation '57 classic HB's. (Prehistorics and historics from '94/5 onwards have the more desireable long tenons). I stand to be corrected as I am writing from memory alone.
As to the value....who knows? The fact that it was signed and played by the late Les Paul himself, well...that could be a plus for some. So, if you are serious about selling it, put YOUR price/value on it, and see what happens.

See http://www.lespaulforum.com/slub2/mslub.html for a great collection of Les Pauls.
I have found the following subsequent to my posting above. a Must for LP collectors: http://www.lespaulforum.com/finalframes/frameset.htm

singemonkey

From another discussion on the forum, it occurs to me that a PRS could be a really good investment. The man himself won't run the company forever. It's flying now, but the fortunes of these companies go up and down. PRS guitars made during this good period will probably be highly regarded in 20 years time is my guess. Especially looking for discontinued models of significance. I'd reckon that'd be a good bet.

If I see a pre-war Gibson banjo going for R950, I'll definitely pick it up. I need something to replace my Hondo ?

tonerider

X-rated Bob - I'm sure there are many old guitars out there and I'm aware that these things are very much a matter of personal preference and to me personally not every old guitar is a "vintage guitar". There are old Martins out there that command incredible prices and I've seen a D45 going for $35000.00 in Matt Umanov Guitars in Manhattan. Shown only to select customers I was lucky enough to see it while it was being inspected by a prospective buyer.

It is my view that anyone who can afford to invest in a vintage instrument should only be looking at untouched Fenders and Gibsons (and Martins) that predate 1963. Having said that I sincerely don't think anyone is going to find such an instrument in South Africa anymore. After all, a good investment should be something that makes you a much bigger profit, and if you're lucky enough to find a 59 Les Paul Standard (for instance) chances are 99% that it's owner will be aware of it's value and selling it to you at its optimum collectible price already. I guess what I want to say is that if you're going to pay a lot of money for a vintage instrument then it might not be an investment at all. It is also widely perceived that the vintage market had already peaked during the mid 1990's so why pay R10.00 to make R12.00 over say 25 years. If you got the bucks rather buy another property and lease it out!

Vic - I guess my LP is indeed a run of the mill '94 Standard re-issue. I bought it at Manny's Music in Manhattan in 95 for $1350.00 (R4846.00 - cheap in 95 at around R3.59 to the $). It's serial number is 91435457 (which I think makes it a 95 but I stand corrected). Anyway, it's definitely NOT for sale since the old man wrote my name on it. (To Andre, Keep On Pickin', Les Paul) It will remain in our family and with any luck will appreciate and turn into a real investment for the next generation of Meyers ?

vic

@Andre...yes it's a Standard '95. But it's now something VERY special with Lester's name on it. Keep it in the family. ?

Bob-Dubery

I do think that big money is only made ONCE with such an instrument. You find it, you snap it up, you sell it to George Gruhn. He will make a profit, but not a huge one.

And when you do find a bargain it's because the seller didn't know his oats. EG the Jaguar that I saw yesterday. The same collector had heard about a nice old Gibson in some dorpie somewhere. He made enquiries, got some pictures e-mailed to him and thought he was going to get it for R2k. Then the seller got smart, did some looking around on E-bay and sold it for $170000.

There are still some goodies in SA, but not many. You have to have your ears constantly to the ground, be in the right place at the right time etc.

Of course, if you have lots of GAS money available you can buy a D45 at the going rate and stick it under the bed. The value must go up.

vic

The thing with most of the modern guitars (barring a few custom built brands) is the sheer production numbers of Fenders, Gibsons, PRS, etc. today..... Compare with the (only) circa 1200 LP Customs and about 9000 LP Standards shipped between '53-60 .

Vintage-Guitar

The High end guitars are still out there, the majority are in the hands of collectors and original owners.
You have to know what you are looking at and be prepared to splash the cash when they become available.
I purchased three 1950's Gibson Les Pauls last year and they were all 6 figure purchases. 8)

vic

Vintage Guitar wrote: The High end guitars are still out there, the majority are in the hands of collectors and original owners.
You have to know what you are looking at and be prepared to splash the cash when they become available.
I purchased three 1950's Gibson Les Pauls last year and they were all 6 figure purchases. 8)

Sellers can't be fooled in this day and age....a lot of info is available and SA is part of the global set-up.