Buyer Beware

andrewjbryson · 2010-01-05T13:20:45+00:00

A particular member on this Forum sold me a Multi-effects pedal. He claimed that it was in working order (good working order), etc. After taking quite a while to send it, I finally received it. However, after a few minutes of it being powered on, it starts repeating the soundwave, (almost like an eternal echo of the soundwave, but with other noise interference) He claims that it was working before he sent it off. The pedal arrived in a box, sealed with plastic wrap(bubble wrap), so I doubt it got abused along the way. My question : Am I entitled to a refund of my cash? Should I accept my loss and GAS elsewhere? Comments appreciated

DonovanB

I once gave a guy a neutral rating on bidorbuy and he mailed me, moaning about, "why neutral?" then he gave me a bad rating just because I gave him a neutral rating. He effectively was trying to bully me into giving him a good rating.

That said, I have been ripped off on bidorbuy and that was that. they disappeared and more complaints cropped up since. its an ugly scenario...

Gearhead

X-rated Bob wrote In the case of GFSA trading is a side issue, not the main motivation of the site.

This is not enough of a reason not to try to get it right. It was said in another thread not so long ago, that people sometimes become member of the site to be able to post classifieds. It is also clear from the stats, that the classifieds account for a significant amount of the page views of GFSA. Page views equals income, so there is your reason. >☹
I am not saying that any member should just be able to start a flame war against another member, I'm just saying that some peer pressure helps smoother out any wrinkles that might occur. So instead of trying to be completely impartial by copping out, I think GFSA should try to be completely impartial by letting people post any comments they might have, EVEN THOUGH IT IS NOT NICE TO HEAR, as long as it is not impolite.

singemonkey

I'm with Bob. I don't think it needs a full on system. But what a forum can do is create a "public" that a member has to appear before. In other words, there's pressure if you've been here a while, and want to stay here, not to create bad blood by ripping someone off.

In this case the fault may have been entirely innocent - in which case, I'm sure the seller would have refunded the money anyway. In a case of a malicious con however, a seller may be persuaded to back down and refund based on fear of never being able to show his or her "face" on the forum again.

If the seller thinks he or she is being misrepresented, the facts usually get angrily presented on both sides and, from what I've seen, the story is usually sorted out to most people's satisfaction. The buyer is also under pressure not to be unreasonable or take chances ("But who has time to read the small print?" or "You didn't say it didn't come with a strap!" or "When I was tinkering in the back of the amp, it exploded. I want my money back!").

So after a while, you learn not to sell to a d%&k, and not to buy from a d^&k.

Ray

This site provides a faciltiy to advertize your stuff and for potential buyers to respond to the seller set the transaction rolling. I sure as hell think then that it is between the parties involved and not the admins, mods and members of the forum to sort out bad deals and mistakes. It is a contact point and not a crucifixion board.

singemonkey

Ray wrote This site provides a faciltiy to advertize your stuff and for potential buyers to respond to the seller set the transaction rolling. I sure as hell think then that it is between the parties involved and not the admins, mods and members of the forum to sort out bad deals and mistakes. It is a contact point and not a crucifixion board.

I disagree. What about if someone on the forum did actually screw you in a deal? Would you keep quiet about it if he or she refused to budge? You'd go on watching the person posting messages merrily, advertising other items, knowing that they ripped you off? You'd keep quiet while someone else expressed interest in something they were selling?

No. It becomes a social issue then. You have a beef with that person now. Better that it's aired on the forum imo.

In the absolute worst case scenario, you have a serial con-man fighting all kinds of secret battles with peed-off members, with each new buyer none the wiser. If it was discussed, and it became clear that the person was a real problem, they'd get banned - to the benefit of all.

I'm not suggesting that there's anyone like this on the forum. Just that, if everything was kept private, it would enable such a person.

NorioDS

Gearhead, I'll give you my R300-R400 per month "profit" (some months 0, meaning I'm running at a steep loss considering server costs) and YOU can implement/hire people to implement the system you're talking about. Fair?

I like your idea of rules for the classifieds but EACH time Alan or I *have* to get involved in a member-to-member issue, we're losing time we would otherwise bill for in our day-to-day work.

We don't make a fortune running this place, we do it mainly for the passion (and certainly also for the promise of future riches - I won't lie). But until such time as I have more time than I have money, I can't just implement your ideas, as much as I like them. (To be frank: I think your ideas are good. I'm just insulted that you think we earn a fortune and owe you something as a result. We do not.)

Also, everyone else's posts about this being a point of contact are very valid. For the time being, we request that members take it upon themselves to be careful who they buy from. Like GumTree, we do/can not offer you any sort of protection.

Despite this huge angry post from me ? I really like your idea of classifieds rules. We have some in place but we can look into putting more in place that at least explain the risk you undertake when buying from a fellow member.

(This might already be in place - forgive me if it is)

Bob-Dubery

singemonkey wrote
Ray wrote This site provides a faciltiy to advertize your stuff and for potential buyers to respond to the seller set the transaction rolling. I sure as hell think then that it is between the parties involved and not the admins, mods and members of the forum to sort out bad deals and mistakes. It is a contact point and not a crucifixion board.
I disagree. What about if someone on the forum did actually screw you in a deal? Would you keep quiet about it if he or she refused to budge? You'd go on watching the person posting messages merrily, advertising other items, knowing that they ripped you off? You'd keep quiet while someone else expressed interest in something they were selling?

Oh I agree.

It's fair to assume that everybody's acting in good faith, so if I bought a lemon I'd have a polite word first. But if that didn't bring any happiness and I was sure that I had been ripped off I'd definitely post a warning/gripe on GFSA.

However I wouldn't expect Norio or Alan to get involved. No way can they monitor every deal that goes down or figure out what happened and rule on it. That's an unrealistic expectation. I believe that e-bay, gumtree and the like also do not get involved in investigating and adjudicating when deals don't go as planned.

NorioDS

Here's a trader system we could implement in the future:
http://mods.simplemachines.org/index.php?mod=346

All it does is basically let you rate buyers/sellers/traders. The onus is still on you to ensure you don't get ripped off but it could help.

Although trading is a secondary function of this forum, I do realise that it's a very important function so I'd like to put something in place that will help but my comments above still apply. We can only do what we reasonably feel will help without costing an arm and a leg (in terms of money or time).

Gearhead

Norio wrote I'm just insulted that you think we earn a fortune and owe you something as a result. We do not.

I'm not trying to insult anyone, did not think about fortunes at all and herewith offer to be moderator of the classifieds section providing some rules are put in place. For free. The only downside to that is (look at my stats): I am not on GFSA while at work, got better things to do.

After the last couple of posts, I feel the best way is to give buyers some leniency in posting about disappointments and to make this part of the rules of posting in classifieds.

One final remark from my side: honesty and integrity are values, as part of a culture. Culture is what the individual learns from the group. I would think it silly if this particular group did not try to teach their members those values. Why all the attention to politeness and take your hands off when it comes to integrity?

chris77

I say keep it as is. Lets just rather use the Have Had Good Dealings With function better. Nothing worse than being a jury to a dispute you actually have no part in. It will only create bad blood where previously there was none. If such a system was to be implemented, move it out to the Classifieds.co.za domain and keep it seperate from the forum.

chris77

My bad, its not the Classifieds.co.za domain, but the MusicAds.co.za one that I am refering to.

AlanRatcliffe

Norio wrote I really like your idea of classifieds rules. We have some in place but we can look into putting more in place that at least explain the risk you undertake when buying from a fellow member.

(This might already be in place - forgive me if it is)

There are some:

"Classifieds" section
9. The Classified ads section is for our Southern African members only.

10. Ad posts in the "Classifieds" section are only for secondhand goods which are being sold by individuals, not for retail outlets or new items.

11. Please be aware that buying and selling items in the classifieds is at your own risk. Guitarforum.co.za cannot be held in any way responsible for any unsatisfactory transactions you might have buying or selling items in the classifieds.

12. Do not post anything negative about an item for sale in the classifieds section. If you have an issue with any detail of a classified item, please keep it out of the ad thread by sending a PM (Personal Message) the advertiser directly via the PM system provided. If you feel the ad misrepresents the item or in some way transgresses the forum rules, please use the "Report to moderator" link to notify us and we will investigate and take any action.

Let me reiterate a very important point: if you have been defrauded in a sale (as either buyer or seller) it is place of the law of the land to settle the matter. If you do not have enough evidence to win a case, then in posting about it, you can be sued for libel - and as the "publishers" of the libel in question, we could find ourselves in the same boat. Now you may be willing to take the risk of being sued, but I am not. What I will say is: if a judgement has been found in your favour, you can post about it to your hearts content and I will more than happily permanently ban the member in question.

inflames

The problem with implementing this rating system would be creating more overhead for the admins.
I'm sure there are 10+ people that would raise there hands to be admins/moderators (me inclusive), but picking admins is not a easy job at all!
There is a form of trust that needs to be bestowed upon a admin/moderator.

GFSA is still one of the most impressive forums I belong to, with fair and just admins and moderators. I see ourselves as a peaceful community.
If you don't believe me join any IT related forum and you will soon learn how amazing this forum is!

inflames

Since this post, The member has kindly offered to pay me the money back for a refund.
I appreciate his co-operation.

Andrew, just a follow up. Is this problem sorted out?

singemonkey

Alan Ratcliffe wrote Let me reiterate a very important point: if you have been defrauded in a sale (as either buyer or seller) it is place of the law of the land to settle the matter. If you do not have enough evidence to win a case, then in posting about it, you can be sued for libel - and as the "publishers" of the libel in question, we could find ourselves in the same boat. Now you may be willing to take the risk of being sued, but I am not. What I will say is: if a judgement has been found in your favour, you can post about it to your hearts content and I will more than happily permanently ban the member in question.

I'm not in any way arguing that you should challenge the law, just that such an interpretation seems unreasonable. I know of another forum that nearly closed because the owner was threatened with a lawsuit because of the post of a member. Is there any precedent anywhere for anyone actually having a ruling against them in this way?

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