Blackbird carbon fibre classical guitars.........

Keira-WitherKay

right so here we are ... this is a spinoff from the myth re tone woods post where composites were discussed.......

so would i ever want to play a composite guitar.....well if it sounded good enough sure...........

so i found this on you tube .... the one is a comparison with a yamaha classical......and initially i was impressed ..till i heard them side by side in the latter half of the video..and then the carbon fibre instrument sounded decidedly tinny and too sharp ..even toneless when playing chords......... yet i found when it played single notes it sounded as good as the yamaha .......

so yeah at $1500 not a cheap investment but they 100 % weather and waterproof .... and the brochure says vitually indestructable..........

interesting that they did not offer a more conservative shape for the classical model...( they offer a OM steel with curves and very traditional)
i would have thought that most classical musicians who are serious enough to spend this kinda cash would be quite conservative in design.. i know i am...... even if they made a smaller body almost "romantica guitar" style that would be cool . but a rectangular black chumk of guitar is very unpretty........ if i was in RD dept for em i would offer a trad body shape composite guitar and not in black ..surely they could stain the carbongraphite a dark maroon to simulate wood look .......... maybe it's just me but looks for a conservative style of music like classical should be considered....and as i mentioned earlier they do do other shapes just not in nylon.. so not like they can't mould or shape it .....go figure how they think....... that classical players would take to and play a radically different shape........

interesting fact is that the neck is hollow with a second sound hole where the truss rod cover would be ........... interesting

heres a quote from catalogue

Until the Blackbird Rider Nylon’s debut, players were left with the option of risking their
fragile classical guitar while on the road or substituting it with an inferior travel instrument.
Blackbird’s patent–pending, one-piece, hollow body, neck, and head construction
mark a major departure from traditional guitar design—it transforms the entire guitar
into a sound box–enhancing loudness, frequency–range and sustain. To further increase
the air volume of the sound box, the guitar’s right shoulder extends up to the tenth
fret, dubbed the z. The Soundscoop also serves as the ideal location for the sound hole,
while creating more surface area on the ultra–thin carbon fi ber sound board which
further increases tonal response. A secondary sound port projects sound that travels
from the soundbox through the hollow neck to the head. These innovations work in
harmony to create a seemingly physics-defying voice.

AlanRatcliffe

For anyone else that's interested - http://www.blackbirdguitar.com

interesting that they did not offer a more conservative shape for the classical model...

Moot point - I think that most conservative classical players would not play a carbon guitar in the first place. If you have an interest, email them - I'm sure if they get enough people expressing an interest, they will consider it. But the market leaders, Rainsong don't even have a nylon model.

interesting fact is that the neck is hollow with a second sound hole where the truss rod cover would be

Very interesting. The hollow neck is easily understood as solid carbon necks are really heavy (enough to make a Strat neck heavy). The whole guitar is under 1.5 kgs, which is a major boon to a wandering minstrel such as yourself.

[deleted]

No Nopety nope. It's great in it's own right, but if they wanted to really show the potential of each guitar and in the style that it's intended for(classical) I would have liked to listen to some one more proficient in playing it and for that person to list the pros and cons.

[deleted]

After another listen I have a few more points to add. It seems that the carbon fibre is a lot more scratchy on the strings. While the shape of your nails makes a big difference in this (and if they're not the right shape they make even the Yamaha sound bad) it seems the blackbird will just amplify that aspect.

Bob-Dubery

Alan Ratcliffe wrote:
interesting fact is that the neck is hollow with a second sound hole where the truss rod cover would be
Very interesting. The hollow neck is easily understood as solid carbon necks are really heavy (enough to make a Strat neck heavy). The whole guitar is under 1.5 kgs, which is a major boon to a wandering minstrel such as yourself.

Also CF is so strong that the necks CAN be hollow. Making a solid neck would be extreme over engineering.

Bob-Dubery

I think I see a problem with these.

Mervyn Davis once told me a story. The early Smoothtalkers did not have the "horn" on the bass side that they have now.

See

The one on the right is pretty much what Mervyn makes now. Counting from the left it's 6 and especially 7 there are important to this tale.

Number 7 (in the picture, not necessarily serial number 7) was made for a classical player. Mervyn had made a few early models for classical players who raved about them at first and then started complaining that they were getting pains in the neck and shoulders. So Mervyn gets the owner of Number 7 to come into his workshop and to bring another guitar. Mervyn sits and watches him play the two guitars.

It turns out that the classical player is used to having the neck meet the body at the 12th fret. They actually align their head and shoulders using that joint. When the joint isn't at the 12th fret they end up with head and thus shoulders misaligned.

If you look carefully at number 7 it has an extra piece of wood fitted on the bass bout. Mervyn cut this so that the curve of the bodywork would lead the eye to the 12th fret and thus the head should align correctly. Which is what happened. That piece of wood, which he screwed on as a test, is still in place on that guitar and this led to the "horn" that Smoothtalkers now have (which still aligns with the 12th fret on standard scale Smoothtalkers).

Looking at the rainsong, the bodywork and the neck meet at the 10th fret on the bass side...

Bob-Dubery

I read some of the reviews. Several of the descriptions of the sound remind me of things that have been written about the Smoothtalker.

And I think that we need to understand that novel instruments have a different sound. These carbon fibre instruments will never sound like a Ramirez or even a more modest Yamaha. They can't. We have to accept them for what they are, which includes their strengths and weaknesses - just like we know that a Telecaster and a Les Paul won't cover the same territory.

I have been through this with my Smoothtalker. It does some things very well, it is less good for other things. I have heard from various people now that George Gruhn opines that they are the best suited of all guitars in current production for "gypsy" jazz. George isn't trying to sell them to his bluegrass customers though.

In the Ashmolean Museum in Oxford there is a Stradivari guitar from... well before the rinderpest. That was a the bees knees in it's day, but I bet it would sound odd, maybe even deficient to contemporary ears. The guitar has evolved and is still evolving.

[deleted]

We have to accept them for what they are, which includes their strengths and weaknesses

That's pretty much it, but I'm still undecided on what it's strengths are. If any body can think of a few other than "light weight" then I'd be glad to hear them.

Bob-Dubery

Viccy wrote:
We have to accept them for what they are, which includes their strengths and weaknesses
That's pretty much it, but I'm still undecided on what it's strengths are. If any body can think of a few other than "light weight" then I'd be glad to hear them.

Looking at the reviews: Projection, clarity, separation between the strings. Also I bet a Blackbird isn't bothered by changes in humidity and you really CAN sling it in a gigbag and take it anywhere.

Keira-WitherKay

Viccy wrote:
We have to accept them for what they are, which includes their strengths and weaknesses
That's pretty much it, but I'm still undecided on what it's strengths are. If any body can think of a few other than "light weight" then I'd be glad to hear them.

heheh yes viccy when i read the initial reviews it even refers you to a boating magazine.... where the guitar is reviewed as the perfect instrument to have on your boat that would not be in any way damaged by moisture ..and yet still have a great sound........

the other plus is like Bob, Alan and you said the light weight .

and it does fit in an airline overhead bin ......

so yeah that and the indistructive ..ok the manual says virtually indistructable.......but yeah having a travel guitar that is impervious to baggage handlers and normal travel bumps and knocks is a bonus.............

and really i thought when i heard it it was not bad at all..and the initial test when he plays the short piece 1st on a respected wooden yamaha then on the blackbird sounded pretty close........ it was just when the other guy played the blackbird and strummed the chord that it sounded like a harp or lute not a guitar where the same pitched chord on the yamaha just rang out with the accepted classical sound paramaters.........

so yeah again this would be a guitar i would love to hold and play and make up my mind...... cos in reality there's even some ramirez's i don't like personally but they still awesome guitars............

yeah and for me maybe this blackbird could be warmer .......... cos i'm still of the school of fingerpickers that does not use nails......only fleshy bits .....since the amount of hours a day i play my nails would never last ....... and i am happy with the alternative..and actually strive for a warmer tone meaning my personal tone is even on a bright guitar far warmer than most other classical players who use nails...

so yeah viccy this guitar is attractive to us musicians to whom traveling is a way of life......... just love to get my grubby paws on one ...... to test it tho .....

Bob-Dubery

Keira WitherKay wrote: so yeah again this would be a guitar i would love to hold and play and make up my mind...... cos in reality there's even some ramirez's i don't like personally but they still awesome guitars............

One thing about these guitars is that it should be possible to make 100s of them that are virtually identical - thus no more trying 3 or 4 to see which one of them has the magic.

[deleted]

I'm a bit sceptical reading the reviews since I don't know what they're using the guitar for (what style). Clearly they use it for travelling. Projection and clarity are quite elusive and refined skills on the classical guitar and to my mind form a part of musical understanding which you cultivate. I wish I could have the attack Segovia had and I would be very impressed if this guitar could offer that, but I'll keep working on it on my old laminated top.

To get down to the nitty gritty, basicaly I'm none the wiser even with the video of the person "playing" both guitars, sice his playing was tooth grindingly bad on both guitars. I would have liked to have heard versatility. The second video showed something completely cool, but not classical.

Keira-WitherKay

Viccy wrote: I'm a bit sceptical reading the reviews since I don't know what they're using the guitar for (what style). Clearly they use it for travelling. Projection and clarity are quite elusive and refined skills on the classical guitar and to my mind form a part of musical understanding which you cultivate. I wish I could have the attack Segovia had and I would be very impressed if this guitar could offer that, but I'll keep working on it on my old laminated top.

To get down to the nitty gritty, basicaly I'm none the wiser even with the video of the person "playing" both guitars, sice his playing was tooth grindingly bad on both guitars. I would have liked to have heard versatility. The second video showed something completely cool, but not classical.

in all due respect Viccy i doubt this is a guitar that would be a substitute for a classical concert guitarist ........... at all.... but aimed at maybe more people like me who use nylon in world music/jazz and basically just want a fabulous professional sounding nylon tone.... and one that can travel ...... but i doubt we talking the nuances available in say the guitar paco de lucia would use .... or i doubt ana vidivik or any sergovia protoge's would be queing up to buy one........ think it's aimed at a more hybrid market

anyway even for the price which is $1500 before discount.... forthis money you would only buy a mediocre wooden classical ... thats proberbly why they tested it against a yamaha and not a Ramirez.......... definitely not a "master" instrument and we should bear that in mind from the outset .....

so yeah i hear what you saying re the player ........ but it's more a post to just say ..."Hey this is out there??????" and with tonewoods getting rare might be a viable option..and then the bonus of the travel feature ...........

in truth and i said it in the initial post i think it's "F...ugly" it would even appeal to me more if it had a standard guitar shape........ but however ...i would consider it as a working guitar for when i travel and perform abroad so ........ despite it's shape... as with all things in life somethings one can learn to love and live with if the benefits out weigh the asthetics .....

Gearhead

The way I see it, these carbon manufacturers are venturing into a new market - the first thing a marketing guy would want you to do is clarify the difference between what you make and what is already available. So they go all out and make every little thing out of carbon for the sake of it. Yes it is not going to be influenced by the temperature or humidity but is it going to be a nice sounding instrument?
I think over time there will be cross breeds. One could think of a carbon top that is much more flexible and light weight yet strong, supported by braces from some ultimate bracing wood. Or vice versa, spruce/cedar top and carbon bracing. Making the back and sides out of carbon seems a very logical first step, especially when well engineered instead of rounding over a dreadnought (ovation) or making a rectangle as mentioned. As for neck - hollow carbon might be okay-ish, we have seen carbon rods embedded in wood but AFAIK there is no wooden fretboards on carbon backs, which imho would be the simplest in mass production yet be likely to sound good (the wooded sound resonating into the body).

I have been plaing with the idea of making a carbon back, sides and neck / headstock mould and making the rest of the guitar out of wood from the kerfed lining up - I even made some sketches of an inverted 'Breedlove' kind of bridge torque support with a string (or reverb spring) running into the neck ending at the nut, transferring as much vibration back and forth as possible. I however have too many of these project ideas and too little time to do all of them - if only I could leave an unfinished design to the drawing office to work out like I can at work, and have a production team make the prototype ☹