The myth of tonewood?

Bob-Dubery · 2009-12-25T22:17:49+00:00

Interesting stuff at http://www.guitarnation.com/articles/calkin.htm. Can this be true? First of all (and speaking from a steel string guitar perspective), let's discard the notion that some species of wood make good instruments and that others don't. The concept of tonewood is a hoax. Of the few things that we can do to a guitar and still call it a guitar, changing the wood it is made of will have the least impact upon the quality of the sound that it produces. The tonal difference between a mahogany guitar and a rosewood guitar is exactly the same as the difference between two mahogany guitars or two rosewood guitars. Can you tell what a guitar is made of while listening to an unfamiliar recording? No one I know claims they can. No one at the blind listening sessions I've attended could reliably distinguish between mahogany and rosewood guitars, or maple and koa guitars for that matter. Hmmm.... I agree to a point. I have not listened to CDs and said something like "listen to that! Rosewood back and sides." In some cases where I have multiple discs by the same artist I can hear that there's a different guitar being used. This might partly be due to changes in recording practices, but (for example) a Martin does not sound an awful lot like a Lowden. I also think that plugging in instead of miking up is more common now, and a lot of acoustic guitar pickup systems mask the differences between guitars. However I have a Morgan OMR and a Larrivee LV05 that have some similarities - David Iannone who builds Morgans was an apprentice at Larrivee and his guitars very obviously derive from the Larrivee designs so we might go as far as to say that they have common DNA. But they sound different, and it seems to me that a major factor in the different sounds is the tonewoods. The Morgan has Indian rosewood, the Larrivee has mahogany. A friend has a sort of complimentary pair to mine - a Larrivee OM with mahogany back and sides and a L-bodied Larrivee with rosewood. No doubt in my mind (or his) that his rosewood Larrivee sounds more like my rosewood Morgan than my mahogany Larrivee, and that there is also a similarity between the two mahogany Larrivees. Yes the body shape makes a difference, but the similarities between our guitars correspond more to tonewood than to body shape. So whilst I don't claim to be able to listen to an acoustic guitar on record and tell what combination of woods is being used, I do believe that tonewoods DO make a difference. Not as much difference as top wood, but the tonewood definitely adds it's own colour.

Fingerpicker

Everyone definately has their own idea of the perfect guitar. When working in the Middle East a South African colleague asked me to help him choose a good value guitar. We went to a very well stocked guitar shop and searched through their stock, checking all the usual, neck feel and profile, action, fret feel, guitar finish, intonation etc and eventually, after two hours, came up with a very nice, well priced Gibson. Time came to pay and he seemed a little hesitant. I said "Is there a problem?" and he said "yes, I prefer that red guitar". Maybe it matched his couch, or something...

Keira-WitherKay

Fingerpicker wrote Everyone definately has their own idea of the perfect guitar. When working in the Middle East a South African colleague asked me to help him choose a good value guitar. We went to a very well stocked guitar shop and searched through their stock, checking all the usual, neck feel and profile, action, fret feel, guitar finish, intonation etc and eventually, after two hours, came up with a very nice, well priced Gibson. Time came to pay and he seemed a little hesitant. I said "Is there a problem?" and he said "yes, I prefer that red guitar". Maybe it matched his couch, or something...

heheheh yeah there's no accounting for taste .is there?

singemonkey

Fingerpicker wrote I said "Is there a problem?" and he said "yes, I prefer that red guitar". Maybe it matched his couch, or something...

You can play faster on a red guitar. Fact. ?

Fingerpicker

Red is okay on an electric guitar, but not on an acoustic. XRB would have had a fit if he had seen this.

Bob-Dubery

Keira WitherKay wrote mmm interesting .. ok so @Alan .. what oil/treatment/product would i need to put on my rosewood fretboard on my classical to clean/nourish it .... as yeah the laqueur means that the neck and body can be polished but won't absorb any oils anyway ....... but it seems my fretboard is quite porous but not looking dried out or anything.... just wondering if there's anything to help prolong this guitars already long life.......

My Morgan still has all the original paperwork. Amongst those is a little leaflet that says to NEVER oil the fingerboard. They maintain that with a rosewood fingerboard regular playing will keep in shape by transferring natural body oils to the fingerboard.

I take this with a pinch of salt, but not a large one, because they are erring on the side of saying "no oil" because if they say "some oils" then people are going to pour all kinds of gunk on the fingerboard. If it was a serious issue though they'd say "please apply 30 mills of Dr Ratcliffe's SuperLube every 6 months," or "please take the guitar to your nearest Morgan approved workshop once a year."

I have a family member who likes to apply Teak Oil to all parts of his instrument. I have no idea what "Teak Oil" is. I should mention it to Andy McGibbon next time I see him and see what sort of face he pulls.

As you observe, it's probably doing exactly nothing on the lacquered parts of the body.

Gearhead

X-rated Bob wrote I should mention it to Andy McGibbon next time I see him and see what sort of face he pulls.

LOL. There's quite a few different ones as far as I can tell - beginning to suspect I haven't seen 1% of them. Most with a smile in there somewhere ?

Fingerpicker

I finally have an opinion on tonewood.

I went to Andy McGibbon's yesterday to look at a Larrivee LV 09 with a Sitka spruce Top and Indian rosewood back and sides. I took my LV 10 Larrivee in for comparison which is an all Hawaiian Koa guitar. Same shape, same manufacturer, different wood. I spent 3 happy hours doing comparisons between the two.

Acoustically the guitars are like chalk and cheese. The Koa guitar has a very even balance between the strings, the mid range seems to jump out at you. Nice, because that's where I want to spend more time...

The LV 09 (Indian rosewood/sitka spruce) had a more traditional sound, mellow, warmer, stronger bass and treble strings..

Played through an amplifier, they were also like chalk and cheese. Something I didn't expect at all.
Again the Koa guitar sounded very even and the Sitka topped guitar maybe sounding a bit too boomy, requiring a bit of bass roll off.

Which one do I prefer?
If I was playing on the verandah un-amplified, the Sitka spruce, performing on stage, the Koa. Just very different voices.

Which one looks better?
LV 10 is an eyeful, LV 09 a cute blonde, I don't know. But then I always preferred Helen Hunt to Paris Hilton...

Which pickup do I prefer?
The koa has a Fishman microphone/UST dual type of pick up, the sitka their new Performer pickup. Only UST on the Koa used for the test. LR Baggs have always been a bit boomy for me. Prefer Fishman sound. The Performer has a notch filter, phase button and tuner built in which cuts the sound to the PA when tuning. Nice for performing.

Am I going to buy the LV 09? My wife says yes, I've got it on reserve..... Now what can I sell... (The guitarist's dilemma)

Bob-Dubery

Fingerpicker wrote I finally have an opinion on tonewood.

I went to Andy McGibbon's yesterday to look at a Larrivee LV 09 with a Sitka spruce Top and Indian rosewood back and sides. I took my LV 10 Larrivee in for comparison which is an all Hawaiian Koa guitar. Same shape, same manufacturer, different wood. I spent 3 happy hours doing comparisons between the two.

Acoustically the guitars are like chalk and cheese. The Koa guitar has a very even balance between the strings, the mid range seems to jump out at you. Nice, because that's where I want to spend more time...

The LV 09 (Indian rosewood/sitka spruce) had a more traditional sound, mellow, warmer, stronger bass and treble strings..

Koa is a close relative to mahogany. In my experience guitars with mahogany back and sides have more mids and a bit more punch (not volume, I am talking about an attribute of the tone here) than those with rosewood back and sides. Rosewood sometimes has a slightly metallic edge to it - certainly you get a lot more overtones with rosewood, and, as you noted, at a different point in the sound spectrum.

You should allow for the fact that the 9 you played is brand new. It will change with time. My Morgan is spruce and rosewood. It's 9 years old now (or there abouts) and I've had it for (hmmm...) 4 years now. It sounds a little different than it did when I got it (and the top has darkened). Spruce tops do age and "mature" and generally get a little mellower, a little richer. Other top woods may have a notably different "curve" to their aging.

I'm not surprised about the differences in the plugged-in sound. Different brands of electronics with different configurations. I found your comments about the relative merits of Fishman and Baggs interesting.

Fingerpicker

Koa is an Acacia only found in Hawaii. Its closest relative apparently is an Acacia only found on Reunion island.

http://www.ehow.com/about_5330156_types-mahogany-wood.html

The amplified sound very closely mirrored the acoustic sound and this couldn't have been due to different electronics.

We should do a similar test at Andys with your Smoothtalker and Morgan, compared to the Koa. I think that the Morgan and Larivee Sitka would be fairly close, but the koa and Smoothtalker very different.

Bob-Dubery

Fingerpicker wrote Koa is an Acacia only found in Hawaii. Its closest relative apparently is an Acacia only found on Reunion island.

Ouch! Goes to show I must do my homework better. Maybe all those sites mean "sounds a lot like mahogany".

The amplified sound very closely mirrored the acoustic sound and this couldn't have been due to different electronics.

Well that DOES surprise me, as you were using USTs for your test and you'd think (or I would) that they wouldn't pick up those kind of nuances. Given the location of the UST this would mean that sound waves are travelling from the bridge along the top, to the sides, "bouncing" back and colouring the signal that the UST produces.

We should do a similar test at Andys with your Smoothtalker and Morgan, compared to the Koa. I think that the Morgan and Larivee Sitka would be fairly close, but the koa and Smoothtalker very different.

We can try that. The Smoothtalker ALWAYS sounds different from everything else because it is very different.

I would think that the Morgan would be closer to the LV-09 than to your 10, but still different. The body shapes will make a difference. I can even bring my LV-05 (mahogany) along and we can crowd Andy out of his own shop and make him stand outside with the smokers.

If you really want to do this then PM me, but I can only do it on Saturday.

Fingerpicker

Unfortunately I will be in Cape Town from this Saturday to next, so we'll have to do it after that. I would guess that the Koa is closer to the Smoothtalker than to the Morgan.
Many thanks.

Bob-Dubery

Fingerpicker wrote I finally have an opinion on tonewood.

I went to Andy McGibbon's yesterday to look at a Larrivee LV 09 with a Sitka spruce Top and Indian rosewood back and sides. I took my LV 10 Larrivee in for comparison which is an all Hawaiian Koa guitar. Same shape, same manufacturer, different wood. I spent 3 happy hours doing comparisons between the two.

Acoustically the guitars are like chalk and cheese. The Koa guitar has a very even balance between the strings, the mid range seems to jump out at you. Nice, because that's where I want to spend more time...

The LV 09 (Indian rosewood/sitka spruce) had a more traditional sound, mellow, warmer, stronger bass and treble strings..

Well I am just getting confused about the whole issue - though possibly at a higher level of confusion.

A good friend of mine also bought a Larry from Andy recently. What he bought was a sunburst OM-60, part of the Larrivee "vintage" range.

So said friend now has (amongst others)
Larrivee OM-5 - Spruce and mahogany
Larrivee JCL limited edition - Spruce and indian rosewood
Larrivee OM-60 - spruce and indian rosewood

None of which sound much like each other. The new arrival is a much drier sound, the other two have a sort of sweetness which I am now starting to think is typically Larry, but the "vintage" model doesn't have this.

So differences between the OM-60 and the JCL
* body dimensions
* bracing

My Larry LV-05 is the same body shape as the JCL but sounds different. We can attribute that difference to the tonewoods (mahogany V rosewood). So it looks like tonewood DOES make a difference.

But it also looks like it's just one of several factors that determine the way a guitar sounds.

Happily for my friend, all his 3 Larries sound fab. All different, with maybe the OM-60 a bit closer to Nirvana than the others.

PeteM

Hey Zohn - thanks for the article - very informative.

Fingerpicker

Zohn,
Thanks a lot. Very interesting, especially the formula

Bob-Dubery

Those notes correspond with what my ear tells me about the differences between my Morgan (spruce and rosewood) and my Larrivee (spruce and mahogany). The Morgan is darker, richer and sometimes almost metallic. The Larrivee is brighter and has a lot more in the mid range. Some of this difference must be down to different shapes (and the Morgan, I'm told, having a thicker cut top) but comparisons I have made between various guitars lead me to believe that tone woods do lend a distinct character as well (see my comments elsewhere in this thread).

British luthier Nick Benjamin has some well written notes about top woods, tone woods and combinations thereof/

EG

Indian Rosewood is the hardest, most dense back and sides species used as standard in my guitars. These properties give instruments a deep dark sound in the basses with a rich clear midrange and add bright harmonic overtones to the sound with a slight reverby quality. Projection is strong making it an ideal wood for unamplified performances in all styles. With the spruces it gives a classic tone; strong and direct with a beautiful balance of depth, warmth and brightness, and with Cedar it produces a big warm rich sound that is very responsive. Indian Rosewood comes in a range of colours from pinky brown to dark purple brown hues.

http://www.benjaminguitars.co.uk/woods.htm

Note that mahogany is not "better" than rosewood or vice versa. Just different. I like both woods, and like having a rosewood guitar and a mahogany guitar.

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