The myth of tonewood?

Ray

Talking about Ovation. I have never played one but they look interesting to me. Kaki King must think they are quite something though and she seems to be doing pretty well for herself according to a Guitarist review I read some months back. I have taken a look at the specials on the muz site and been pretty interested in these but I see all the tops are laminate there. There is an outfit called Chingon (but why am I telling y'all this because you know? From Kill Bill ne?). At the end of the DVD there is a bit with the band and cant remember exactly, but there are one or two okes with these moerse big bass guitars or something and they are like watermelons they are so round at the back. So I mosey on over to the Ovation site because now I'm all ears up and lo and behold, they have old Al (10,000 notes a second) di Meola up on the site as a featured artist as well. He has a signature model and "Al also performs with an performs with an Adamas 1581-8..". So you okes tell me now, why have these people been bamboozled. How does the round back contribute or detract from the tone generation capabilities of the instrument. Just a probe folks and no animosity meant but I have been within a hair of buying one of these and I hear people say they are kak. Then I see some really up and out there artists playing them. Hoe de moer dan nou?

Gearhead

Ray wrote: How does the round back contribute or detract from the tone generation capabilities of the instrument.

Apparently, according to Ovation marketing speak of old, the bowls have been painstakingly designed to reflect tone in the right amount in the right direction. They needed to emphasize this especially for the off-center multiple soundholes, which were another novelty. I did and do believe you can optimise the shape of a bowl to reflect sound, whether you can do so with a flabby thin layer of plastic is another story.

Ray

Godin also appears to have gone with the novelty of the soundholes away from center.

AlanRatcliffe

Ray wrote: Godin also appears to have gone with the novelty of the soundholes away from center.

So did many of the archtop luthiers. ?

racman

Alan Ratcliffe wrote:
Ray wrote: Godin also appears to have gone with the novelty of the soundholes away from center.
So did many of the archtop luthiers. ?

Isn't that only for musos who are hard of hearing on the left side ? ?

Bob-Dubery

racman wrote:
Alan Ratcliffe wrote:
Ray wrote: Godin also appears to have gone with the novelty of the soundholes away from center.
So did many of the archtop luthiers. ?
Isn't that only for musos who are hard of hearing on the left side ? ?

What?

Did somebody say something?

What?

lindsmuse

What if there's something to the theories in 'The Secret Life of Plants' Christopher Bird and Richard Tomkins - that plants are sentient beings - so when you slice up a plant and make a guitar, you just may be interfering with it's feelings ...

singemonkey

lindsmuse wrote: What if there's something to the theories in 'The Secret Life of Plants' Christopher Bird and Richard Tomkins - that plants are sentient beings - so when you slice up a plant and make a guitar, you just may be interfering with it's feelings ...

Then we're playing on butchered murder victims. How fun. Like making an instrument out of your dead grandma by attaching strings to her toes and her loose (tune-able) teeth. ?

But seriously, it'd be a pretty cruel joke if plants were sentient, and yet unable to alter their surroundings or escape attackers. Kind of like being paralysed on the operating table but able to feel every stroke of the scalpel.

chris77

X-rated Bob wrote: Interesting stuff at http://www.guitarnation.com/articles/calkin.htm.

Of the few things that we can do to a guitar and still call it a guitar, changing the wood it is made of will have the least impact upon the quality of the sound that it produces.
True. The shape, size, type of strings, bracing, build quality etc. will have a far greater influence on the tone than the type of wood used. But to suggest that it will have NO influence is nonsense.
The Author will make a good politician or doomsday prophet IMO, using valid information in a misleading manner to promote a personal cause or viewpoint.
We can say that when viewed as a fractual factor it only has a minor influence- in relation to other factors- on the Tone. That fraction becomes very significant though when placed in context. Think of the Genetic correlation between humans and higher primates, said by some to be as high as 98% identical. The 2% that we dont share is the important bit. The type of wood used affects the guitar in much the same way. All else being equal, the wood used will be the differentiating factor in the finished instruments.

Bob-Dubery

singemonkey wrote:
lindsmuse wrote: What if there's something to the theories in 'The Secret Life of Plants' Christopher Bird and Richard Tomkins - that plants are sentient beings - so when you slice up a plant and make a guitar, you just may be interfering with it's feelings ...
Then we're playing on butchered murder victims. How fun. Like making an instrument out of your dead grandma by attaching strings to her toes and her loose (tune-able) teeth. ?

But seriously, it'd be a pretty cruel joke if plants were sentient, and yet unable to alter their surroundings or escape attackers. Kind of like being paralysed on the operating table but able to feel every stroke of the scalpel.

Is there any evidence to suggest that plants have a nervous system and/or brain? That's what they'd need to be sentient.

Personally I think there's more chance of my finding fairies at the bottom of my vegetable patch.

Bob-Dubery

chris77 wrote: True. The shape, size, type of strings, bracing, build quality etc. wil have a far greater influence on the tone than the type of wood used. But to suggest that it will have NO influence is nonsense.

Well exactly. The top IS more important than the back and sides, but that doesn't mean that the back and sides have no effect on the sound of the guitar. Different tone woods do offer different colourings to the sound of an acoustic guitar.

Actually I think he's argued his way into an interesting position. If he thinks that tonewoods are of no consequence and that papier mache does just as good a job, then he might as well cut to the chase and start advocating guitars with laminated or masonite or glass fibre back and sides. Bakelite anybody? Plexiglass?

Ray

X-rated Bob wrote: Is there any evidence to suggest that plants have a nervous system and/or brain? That's what they'd need to be sentient.

Is there any evidence that they dont?

Fingerpicker

I'm not big on the differences between different woods. Hell I even like the sounds my Strat makes unplugged. Mike Rowe of Koko plays brilliant stuff in his battered old Ovation. Keira could make your socks roll up and down playing a builders plank with a pickup fitted.

Stevie Ray Vaughn said (in #99 ways to play better (and sound better) Right Now) "#99 Trust your hands - Your sound is in your hands as much as anything. It's the way you pick, and the way you hold your guitar, more than it is the amp or the guitar you use."
I never heard him play an acoustic though...

I play "good" guitars just so I will have no excuse for making kak music. If it's kak, it's me, not the guitar.

By the way, thanks to that man for supplying the 99 Ways....link from www.guitarplayer.com

NorioDS

Ray wrote:
X-rated Bob wrote: Is there any evidence to suggest that plants have a nervous system and/or brain? That's what they'd need to be sentient.
Is there any evidence that they dont?

Well put. "Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack." Not having evidence is not the same as evidence not existing.

Very interesting thread - enjoying immensely ?

Wizard

At the risk of repeating myself ...

In an electric guitar the sound chain goes:
musician --> strings --> pickups --> amplifier

In an acoustic:
musician --> strings --> bridge --> soundboard --> body resonance --> transmission through sound hole

The [body resonance] is affected by the reflection and absorbtion of the sound by the back and sides.

So every part of the chain contributes.
The argument being put forward is that all other things being equal, the wood of the soundboard is a relatively insignificant contributor.

IMO this just cannot be.
It is the fundamental place where the energy from the strings is converted to audible sound.

We know that the wood grain has to be straight to facilitate oscillation.
We know the fibres need the right elasticity - too loose and they'll absorb the sound; too tight and they'll only respond to high frequencies.
We know that different woods have different grain and elasticity.
Therefore - the wood of the soundboard must be critical to the end sound ... all other things being equal.

chris77

Nope. Sorry to sound like a grown up bashing the existence of Santa Claus, but no. Plants are Not sentient. And you dont need evidence to prove it, because it falls in the common sense category. Nobody has ever provided evidence that seven headed flesh eating zombie dragons dont exist either, but to seriously insinuate they do based on lack of evidence that they dont is nuts.

Gearhead

The only generally accepted exception to this rule seems to be extraterrestrials, evidence for whom is non-existent yet most people readily accept they are out there :?

AlanRatcliffe

chris77 wrote: Nope. Sorry to sound like a grown up bashing the existence of Santa Claus, but no. Plants are Not sentient. And you dont need evidence to prove it, because it falls in the common sense category. Nobody has ever provided evidence that seven headed flesh eating zombie dragons dont exist either, but to seriously insinuate they do based on lack of evidence that they dont is nuts.

Ever read the books Supernature and The Romeo Error by the biologist Lyall Watson? You'll realise that we do not know what sentience or even life are, and much less understand where they start or stop.

Wizard

Gearhead wrote: The only generally accepted exception to this rule seems to be extraterrestrials, evidence for whom is non-existent yet most people readily accept they are out there :?

A cool quote from Calvin & Hobbes:
"The greatest proof of extraterrestrial intelligence is the fact that they haven't tried to contact us"

Sean

Gearhead wrote: ...yet most people readily accept they are out there :?

Hmm, interesting. You seem to have met many people who accept they are out there ? I'm pretty sure I know most of the people you know in this country, so it must be those crazy Dutch...