now this would be nice in my xmas stocking ...............ramirez 2005

Keira-WitherKay

yeah for some it's a les paul or a strat or a JEM 7 but for me this is nothing but heavan

singemonkey

It sounds beautiful. How much will it set you back? A little bit more than a Les Paul, I reckon ?.

What physical differences are there between a top-end guitar like this and an intermediate (say R10,000 guitar)?

What is the piece? It sounds very familiar - and lovely. Wouldn't mind trying to learn it (although I suspect it would take me about 2 years just to be able to fumblingly play it through).

PeteM

Yeah Keira - I'll take 2 - one as a backup. ?

Keira-WitherKay

singemonkey wrote It sounds beautiful. How much will it set you back? A little bit more than a Les Paul, I reckon ?.

What physical differences are there between a top-end guitar like this and an intermediate (say R10,000 guitar)?

not sure what a les paul sells for ????????? but this guitar in british pounds is 6952 pounds and thats on special ......
http://www10.uk.shopping.com/xPO-Ramirez-Special-C650 so whats that in rands ...mmm the online currency converter
says R 85 121 thats a chunk or change or what ........

as for the difference between an R85K and a R10K guitar well it's actually on a nylon quite substantial........ and of course ramirez is kinda a brand name where you do pay for the brand ..... but these are all hand built instruments..and made of the finest woods.......

but between you and me.......... a good ramirez say the 125 year aniversary model is only about 25K and will sound and feel mind blowing and still made by hand....... but yeah i often wonder who buys guitars like this since for 85K Ramirez will actually custom design a guitar for you .......... so will most luthiers ......and i would guess a pro ...and a famous classical guitarist would rather have custom made instrument than an off the rack model like this.............so is it bought by wealthy amateurs ............ i truly have no idea ...... what you think

but yeah i think the nature of acoustic instruments is the wood and craftsmanship or craftswomanship ...cos yes the Ramirez company is currently run by a woman and for many years now......... Amalia Ramirez ......... and she's personally involved with the production not just a figurehead.... theres some useless information ........... but my point was that it's not easy to sell a bad classical guitar since all the wood is visible and the tone and feel is so much under the spotlight by the top players......... the tiniest nuance in the sound is listened for........ by the buyers ......and since the guitars ussually perform clean with maybe only reverb ...no bad or mediocre sound is hidden in effects...........
so in answer to your question there's a huge difference between a factory model classical for 10 K and something in this calibre.......

Bob-Dubery

Keira WitherKay wrote
singemonkey wrote It sounds beautiful. How much will it set you back? A little bit more than a Les Paul, I reckon ?.

What physical differences are there between a top-end guitar like this and an intermediate (say R10,000 guitar)?

not sure what a les paul sells for ????????? but this guitar in british pounds is 6952 pounds and thats on special

Bear in mind that the 2nd hand market for high-end guitars is less developed in SA than overseas so high-end 2nd hand instruments don't fetch as much unless the buyer takes them or will ship them overseas. So you can luck in.

I know of a 2nd Ramirez in very good condition, nearly 20 years old, Brazilian rosewood, that recently changed hands for less than R20K! I'm kicking myself because I knew of the instrument, knew it was for sale and just figured that the price was going to be stratospheric. I should have asked and then haggled a little. I would have got a great investment.

Keira-WitherKay

wow bob thats a great deal........ mmmm damn wish i'd known of it ........... i would definitely have put in an offer .... what model was it..... cos ramirez make from student models (that cost R15000) to top end or what they call professional models that yeah rather not want to know the price of.........so if it was a student model from back then then it's not that sought after ..... but even their student models are made with better woods and construction than most other brands top models are ........

although i must agree that many top end instruments here sell for a fraction of their price........ 2nd hand......... but when you can find em.... and the catch to me is the seller must really need to sell...as in needs the money quick...those are best deals

cos lets just accept that anyone who keeps it as an investment or collector won't just let it go for a low price ..... they rather just store it for another 5 yrs.......

i think one needs luck and cash on hand to snap at these deals as they happen.......... and of course the right place at the right time.......

Bob-Dubery

Keira WitherKay wrote wow bob thats a great deal........ mmmm damn wish i'd known of it ........... i would definitely have put in an offer .... what model was it..... cos ramirez make from student models (that cost R15000) to top end or what they call professional models that yeah rather not want to know the price of.........so if it was a student model from back then then it's not that sought after ..... but even their student models are made with better woods and construction than most other brands........

Can't say exactly what model it is, but the use of Brazilian rosewood suggests that it's not a bottom end model - that wood is scarce and expensive.

Keira-WitherKay

X-rated Bob wrote
Keira WitherKay wrote wow bob thats a great deal........ mmmm damn wish i'd known of it ........... i would definitely have put in an offer .... what model was it..... cos ramirez make from student models (that cost R15000) to top end or what they call professional models that yeah rather not want to know the price of.........so if it was a student model from back then then it's not that sought after ..... but even their student models are made with better woods and construction than most other brands........
Can't say exactly what model it is, but the use of Brazilian rosewood suggests that it's not a bottom end model - that wood is scarce and expensive.

but maybe 20 yrs ago it was not that rare a wood.... although i'm not sure........ but yeah i'd settle for a ramirez for 20 K in any wood if it sounds good of course hehehhehehe

Bob-Dubery

Keira WitherKay wrote
X-rated Bob wrote
Keira WitherKay wrote wow bob thats a great deal........ mmmm damn wish i'd known of it ........... i would definitely have put in an offer .... what model was it..... cos ramirez make from student models (that cost R15000) to top end or what they call professional models that yeah rather not want to know the price of.........so if it was a student model from back then then it's not that sought after ..... but even their student models are made with better woods and construction than most other brands........
Can't say exactly what model it is, but the use of Brazilian rosewood suggests that it's not a bottom end model - that wood is scarce and expensive.
but maybe 20 yrs ago it was not that rare a wood.... although i'm not sure........ but yeah i'd settle for a ramirez for 20 K in any wood if it sounds good of course hehehhehehe

Maybe... but Martin switched from Brazilian to Indian on their 28 series guitars in the mid 70s because of legislation and because of price increases.

So yeah, maybe. Don't know enough about the range, but the guy who bought it did his homework and knows that he can easily triple his investment by selling it in the US.

BMU

Keira WitherKay wrote ...or a JEM 7 but for me this is nothing but heavan

As one of the resident Jem 7 bigots (haha) I have to say that looks very cool. Don't rich owners of these instruments loan them out to deserving virtuosos such as yourself, like they do with Stradivarii? Ok probably not. ?

Keira-WitherKay

BMU wrote
Keira WitherKay wrote ...or a JEM 7 but for me this is nothing but heavan
As one of the resident Jem 7 bigots (haha) I have to say that looks very cool. Don't rich owners of these instruments loan them out to deserving virtuosos such as yourself, like they do with Stradivarii? Ok probably not. ?

]

yeah the answer to that is 'NOT BLOODY LIKELY " but it would be nice,,,,,,,,,,,

singemonkey

With regard to the investment story: don't classical guitars peak and decline quite quickly? LIke 40 years or so? Would you pay top dollar for a custom made classical from say, 1904, if it wasn't of historical value? Wouldn't the tone have declined significantly by now? I thought a lot of classical performers tend to play fairly new guitars - 10 years old or so.

I spoke to a guy in the Steinway shop a while back (poor fella talked to a piano ignoramus cos they probably don't get that much walk-in custom) and said that the value declines quite a bit in a fairly short time, and that concert halls replace their pianos every 30 years or so (might have got the details wrong but it was a surprisingly short time).

Gearhead

Personally I don't think it would fit in your stocking. A Ramirez, that is. You could try to knit a Ramirez size stocking, but somehow I get the impression knitting was never your thing 8) . The other option is to put a gigbag underneath the tree and fill the side bags with stockings to give it the right smell at least. The bag, that is.

Bob-Dubery

singemonkey wrote With regard to the investment story: don't classical guitars peak and decline quite quickly? LIke 40 years or so?

That hadn't occured to me. I have heard that flamenco instruments don't last long, but that's because of the treatment they get. For it to be fixed at 40 years would mean that the woods deteriorate in that time - and if that's the case then anybody shelling out for a 1950s or early 1960s Martin needs their head read. Or, as you say, the value lies in scarcity.

I must say that I don't think that the value a collector is prepared to pay is proportional to the playability and tone of the instrument.

Gearhead

After 40 years of Keira performance there will be no top left, and possibly only parts of the sides...

singemonkey

X-rated Bob wrote
singemonkey wrote With regard to the investment story: don't classical guitars peak and decline quite quickly? LIke 40 years or so?
That hadn't occured to me. I have heard that flamenco instruments don't last long, but that's because of the treatment they get. For it to be fixed at 40 years would mean that the woods deteriorate in that time - and if that's the case then anybody shelling out for a 1950s or early 1960s Martin needs their head read. Or, as you say, the value lies in scarcity.

I must say that I don't think that the value a collector is prepared to pay is proportional to the playability and tone of the instrument.

Not quite, because of the heavier construction of flat-top steel strings, they are said to peak later, and stay at peak longer than classical or flamenco guitars (the lightest built apart from any abuse they may suffer). Few arch-tops have the collectors value, but they peak way later, and should theoretically retain their peak tone as long as other arch-tops - like cellos or violins.

So your 1930 Martin may decline in value in 20 years or so, once the peak tone starts to go. I've certainly heard that the growth in value of stradivarii has declined because of their fall-off from peak tone.

Bob-Dubery

singemonkey wrote Not quite, because of the heavier construction of flat-top steel strings, they are said to peak later, and stay at peak longer than classical or flamenco guitars (the lightest built apart from any abuse they may suffer). Few arch-tops have the collectors value, but they peak way later, and should theoretically retain their peak tone as long as other arch-tops - like cellos or violins.

So your 1930 Martin may decline in value in 20 years or so, once the peak tone starts to go. I've certainly heard that the growth in value of stradivarii has declined because of their fall-off from peak tone.

Interesting. Thanks.

I wonder how many unmodified strads there are around?

And I wonder if this means that Danny Thompson's 160 year old bass is starting to get past it's sell-by date.

singemonkey

X-rated Bob wrote
And I wonder if this means that Danny Thompson's 160 year old bass is starting to get past it's sell-by date.

I doubt it. It's probably right in the middle of its peak, I'd guess.

The wikipedia article about Stradivarii has an interesting section on the failure of experts to pick the instruments out in blind tests - some even thinking that a 20th Century violin was the Stradivarius - even after being able to play all the instruments themselves before the test.

I wonder whether this is not also the case with guitars - whether an expert luthier or player could tell a R50,000 Yamaha from a R150,000 custom made instrument?

Bob-Dubery

I have heard a story about a member of the SA Luthier's Association who, in a blindfold test, was extremely rude about one guitar and then found out it was one that he'd made.

Keira-WitherKay

but yeah as for tone......ect and woods.it's an odd ...well let me say "black art" and tone is so dependant on the players style and technique.............

as you all know by now i picked up a yamaha which is now 38 yrs old and not even with a solid top........... for a mere R600 in a pawn shop .and i have taken it to 2 music stores aready and A/B'd it with guitars that cost in the 20K region and the yamaha holds its own...... but my technique is quite unique ...and i do have a different approach and technique to a dedicated classical player ...even though i play classical and flamenco too ....... so in my hands that R600 38 yr old yamaha sounds as good to me and everyone around me too.......
but i like that kinda darker warm tone to a nylon........... not the trebly sound of a true flamenco guitar ............

so yeah tone is personal.......... i bet some players would not like my old guitar ........ but to me i can work professionally with it in an acoustic market where i need good tone to sound good and keep gigs........

Gearhead wrote After 40 years of Keira performance there will be no top left, and possibly only parts of the sides...

and yeah Gearhead ....... i'm already in a few months seeing the wear on the top of the guitar.......... actually soon as i get a chance i'm off to see mervyn davies to let him put some clear film which he uses on some of his smoothtalkers to protect the tops on the worst abused area's heheheh but yeah for me i doubt with my aggressive and percussive style i would want too valuable a guitar to use live.......... although the tone is hugely important to me...and it seems some of the cheaper or less top end models actually have just as good a tone as top end guitars they just need to be sought out........ BUT of course they will never look as beautiful ...since the rare woods are stunning but hey small sacrifice ........ thats why my find of this guitar is so exciting to me........ i found a guitar i can bash about and abuse but it sounds beautiful........... and i use it in flamenco/classical/jazz so it's tones are quite versatile too.........