Keira-WitherKay
hello all....... this post is prompted by me being at a venue last night where i got to see a cover duo ..... and the singers ...well both of the band sing ...but they both sang badly flat all the time...........
and also for the 1st time i started watching some local bands on dstv's mk channel and again i hear many of the lead singers do not hit the notes..........
mmmm i just been back in SA for just short of 2 years now........ and it seems i'm impressed by much of our local music scene in the acoustic and jazz front . but not impressed by the level of any of the local "pub" muso's or cover bands i seen ........ it's maybe that i'm spoilt that i always get to work with great vocalists....... or maybe just that the jazz singers take singing more seriously and learn to sing scales and improv as part of their musical foundation .......
does anyone else pick this up...........??? and yeah maybe it's just me...cos i play instrumental music where i play melodies and maybe i'm so used to hearing a songs melody being played perfectly in pitch i'm being unreasonable ... but i don't think so......
and last nights show i watched a bit of was horendous the girl was battling to sing a Dido song in pitch......... i respect it when someone tries to do whitney and misses the high notes cos thats hectic...... or when the drummer who does not ussually sing... sings a zztop song and sounds barely passable .... but it's surely unforgivable for the "frontline vocalist" to be not able to sing simple melodies in key .........
and surely the bands can hear their singer sings flat..... why not send em for lessons ....or even just help em themselves....... most guitarists in band still study despite their level....... or judging on what i saw on tv there were many people recording with flat/off pitch vocals........ don't the labels say something
and remember i'm not talking about the tone of the voice or whether i like their style ..... but the technicallity of missing the notes and singing flat or even sharp in some cases......... and then i get to see these people in pro gigs...... makes me wonder
so yeah what experience do you have........... are the muso's and band members involved truly tone deaf ...cos it does happen.... and then they think they sounding great.........and nailing the notes
Seventhson
Yes that is why most local bands are so terrible.
singemonkey
It's not just he lack of monitors that we so often have to deal with?
The whole thing is interesting. Among white South Africans, it's a rare thing for someone to be able to even hold a tune - let alone sing well. My culture has almost entirely lost that. I was a Christian as a teenager, and I'm still appalled when I'm at a wedding or funeral, how ghastly the singing of hymns is in a mostly white congregation. We've all but lost it.
So I think some people get into singing in a band as a romantic notion while being at a place in singing that's equivalent to struggling with your first F barre chord. But if you have the right look, you might be asked to sing in a band. Or you might form one yourself because you're dying to express yourself. But you have no training at all, and have probably had very little practice.
I'm conscious that I practise singing far more than guitar. Because when I commute, I actively practise being able to sing the stuff that I'm listening to - trying to shriek along with AC/DC, or croon along with Elvis. I'm trying to expand my capabilities, and improve my technique. Sometimes I'll even do exercises while driving. Even so, I'm not a great singer.
But I suspect some of these vocalists don't even know enough to practise.
My boss and another colleague sing in a gospel vocal group. But even those among my black and coloured colleagues who are not considered talented singers sing better than I do. And yet, among my white friends - including musicians - I'm considered a particularly good singer. Singing is really vanishing from my culture - if you don't get training, you usually don't know how.
MIKA-the-better-one
I find that here in SA very few people know how to use there voice. For example one can sing in a band even if they are not the stringest singer hence myself, its doing it so you dont jump into an ocean when you can hardly swim. Think Billy Corgan from the Smashing Pumpkins.... not a good singer, but he used his voice in a way that people dont notice and to a point it makes the band stand out. A band I spoke to in the US a while back who were on tour with Panic at the Disco, called Moros Eros, their singer was no good, but he used his voice in a way that most of us would never think to do, so it was unique, he didnt cover vast vocal ranges he just sang what worked for him.
As mentioned singers here get a notion that they are know amazing and they will sing like Axl Rose or Chris Crnell (RIP). Its a case of getting ahead of oneself.
On a side note I do fing 90% of Afrikaanse rock bands sing monotone and horrible, I am yet to find a appealing Afrikanse singer.
Also bands in this coutrey should not agree to play shows with no moniters, its so unproffesional of a venue, and if all bands start doing this the standard will be forced up by the venues and functions.
singemonkey
MIKA the better one wrote:
Chris Crnell (RIP).
Chris Cornell is dead?
6x9base13
singemonkey wrote:
MIKA the better one wrote:
Chris Crnell (RIP).
Chris Cornell is dead?
Been frantically googling since I read that post too. Google doesn't seem to think so !
MIKA-the-better-one
HAHAHA no, he just started making terrible music, teaming up with timbaland for the trecherous thing which made him as good as dead in my heart. ☹
Bob-Dubery
Yes. I hear a lot of ropey vocals these days.
I do wonder if people are aware of being able to change the key of a song. The songs that I play are often in a different key from what is on the record - and I change the key so I CAN sing the song. There's one couple I can think of (no names, no packdrill) who always sound bad. Why? Because he plays guitar and she sings and he picks the keys with no consideration at all for the singer. She's not a GREAT singer, but I've heard her and she can do a lot better than you usually hear - if only she got the right keys to sing in. I hope somebody buys him a capo for Christmas - then he has a lot less excuses.
And I think singing is underestimated. I certainly have underestimated it. I'm thinking of taking singing lessons in the new year rather than starting up guitar again (a common criticism, which I only partly understand, is that I tend to sing from the head rather than the torso). I do take care to find a key that I can sing a song in and try to check that I make the lowest note and highest note in that song (sometimes I have to make a trade off), but there's more to it than that. Hitting a high note and holding it without wavering is difficult (controlled vibrato helps), changing notes on vowel sounds is not that easy.
Maybe it's a lack of coaching. Singemonkey suggested that monitors may be a problem. I have this quite a lot at TJs, you usually get lots of vocals and no guitar in the monitors. OK... I should ASK for some. But it's a problem for people who are not used to it. You can't get your voice in tune with the guitar if you can't hear the guitar.
Maybe it's an over reliance on autotune. Engineers are tidying it up in the studio without even telling you, then you get put on stage.
Maybe the audience aren't listening anyway so who cares? (Sloppy. I sometimes think that nobody is paying attention to me, but I still want to be happy that I did my best).
I think there's a lot of it around. I think we see/hear it more locally because we see more local musicians live (most of the local acts that come here will play in large arenas and the magic box will have been packed). I hear a lot of younger singers (local and others) who seem to be not able to hold a note. I'm sure that's why there's so much fast changing of notes and whooping up and down the scale in vocals these days, so much ornamentation - they lack the control to hit and then hold a note.
Audiences tend to notice bad timing more than bum notes. I know that I sing or play the wrong note but I do it IN TIME I am more likely to get away with it than if I drop a beat. But if you sing flat all the time people should notice if they're paying any attention.
And you know, the way society is these days people don't SING or whistle as much any more. People used to have sing songs at home, whistle a tune whilst they were walking to the bus stop etc etc. We are not as exposed to music and notes and melody as we used to be.
Producer Joe Boyd says that the only young singers who interest him now are people like Martha Wainwright (daughter of Loudon Wainwright and Kate McGarrigle) and Teddy Thompson (son of Richard and Linda Thompson) because, he says, they grew up in families where there was lots of music, not just on the hi-fi, but round the supper table, for amusement of an evening, and they sing in a much more natural way and with better control than singers who didn't grow up in that kind of environment.
[deleted]
I was at a brunch the other day, where the hosts had hired a singer/guitarist, to play a few covers. I can't realy crit his singing that much, although I tried not to listen too hard, because he just COULD NOT tune his giutar. Not just one string, but EVERY STRING was out. Eventualy he managed to rope them in more or less, but that's something he should have done before he started though.
I tend to find that singers rely a bit too heavily on the little modern conveniences.The bar just gets lower and lower. Projection? Anyone? Remember when people actualy breathed in a lot of air and SANG, now they rely on a little reverb and amplification. And even then they don't bother to sing in key? I'm all for diversity, and I know it's pointless having a little hissy fit. I just can't help wondering if people are just in too much of a hurry. Mastery takes time.
DonovanB
I can never hear myself when I sing. Maybe I'm that bad that I get turned down... but I have a lot of issues with monitors.
Here we always have more frontline sends than AUX sends on a desk, I always end up sharing a monitor with the lead vocalist so mine gets cut out completely and all I hear is him and the main guitar or keyboard.
I am terrible, I spend hours practicing to play guitar and none on singing. Thats why I am bad...
Keira-WitherKay
well guys just like a guitarist carries an amp with em to a gig ..even if it's just a few songs...... (no excuse for being lazy...) then a vocalist can also do the same.......... they make vocal processors which my vocalist has
http://www.playrecord.net/effects/vocal-fx/digitech-vocal-300-vocal-effects-processor.p38.html which has a balanced line out plus stereo 1/4 inch line out meaning she can go to the desk and send a signal to her own powered monitor ...all exclusive of the mix or the house PA ...it's a vocal multi fx pedal setup with a DI ...
so yeah it's affordable and powered monitors can be as small as a 100W powered 8 " which means the vocalist has effectively more to bring to a gig but the sound and effects can be controlled.......... useful piece of gear ..... and not expensive ...... under 3.5K for the digitech
yeah but my initial post was about people regardless of good sound still singing flat ..or off key .........
and yeah both Bob and Viccy +1 to your posts ...
Gearhead
Keira, I have heard your vocalist and am guessing she wouldn't hit a false note when attacked in a subway station while the trains were passing :?
PeteM
I know I go back eons - but I learned to sing in a church choir from the age of 9. We used to practice once a week with just the boys (2 hours on a week day 4pm - 6pm) and once a week with the full mens' choir (Fridays 6pm - 8pm). We would do 2 church service every Sunday (am and pm) as well as regular weddings (we got paid pocket money to keep us interested). The choirmaster/organist, who was employed part-time by the church, was very proficient in his duties and used to push us to our limits. We sang mostly classical praise music - chants, hymns, anthems etc. Some of it highly complex stuff like Handel's Messiah.
The reason for this long-winded intro is to inquire whether this still takes place or whether the churches are now more interested in using 'pop' bands to appeal to their congregations. I reckon the singers in these bands don't have access to experienced choirmasters/voice trainers hanging over their shoulders correcting their mistakes. Emphasis is placed on the sound the band creates as a whole at the expense of accurate intonation of the singers.
Where can a kid now get that all important grounding to learn to sing properly where they are trained to listen to the person next to them and to be able to hold a harmony? I'm sure this has a lot to do with the poor standards of singing we are experiencing on our bandstands at the moment.
guidothepimmp
i found that while in a band, we had a singer in a live situation but he did struggle hitting certain notes...
when we were in studio recording our EP our producer had to doctor our vocalist track in many places where take after take, he just could not hit the right notes, it was either always flat or sharp on higher notes. After that experience, I started wondering how we actually sounded live.
Valid point i think! Good vocalists are few and far between and this probably does not help our local live music scene
Tokai-SA
Best vocalist I've heard for many a year is Clint Cunningham, from Clint & Co...brilliant.
Let's put it this way...if our aspiring vocalists (at school) spent as much time committed to mastering their vocals as they spent playing rugby, cricket, tennis & soccer, we'd have some world class singers. ?
No guessing why Trevor Rabin wasn't a great sportsman...mother was a piano/music teacher and his father was a violinist, not much sports happening in that household. ?
And it's only going to get worse, because now we have a generation of teenagers addicted to computers, and they're our future...it's scary.
Keira-WitherKay
Gearhead wrote:
Keira, I have heard your vocalist and am guessing she wouldn't hit a false note when attacked in a subway station while the trains were passing :?
heheh yeah gearhead i try to work with fabulous vocalists......... alicia the one you heard actually holds a degree (bmus) in jazz with vocals as her major....... and she now tutors jazz vocals at a music college ......so yeah she's one who has prepared for a pro music career as a vocalist by studying it.........
always wondered why more vocalists just think it's a natural gift.......... cos imagine if they sound great without training ..just imagine how they would sound with it ............. most of vocal training is merely control ......... controlling the air you take in.. the air you push out and controlling the pitch ...... and doing it all without damaging your voice......... a great example is Alicia and i often play 2 gigs a day ......... she does all the jazz and whitney type style of singing hitting high notes but never gets sore throats or gets hoarse....... it's all cos of the training... she really pays attention to her breathing ...which is the life saver or throat saver .........
chris77
Hehehe...
I used to think my bassy drone wasn't too bad. I knew I wasnt a great vocalist, but I thought I managed to at least sound average.
And then I heard my voice recorded.... Bloody hell! I sound like a drugged up bum mumbling for change, totally oblivious to the key I was supposed to be in. ?
Maybe if more folks recorded themselves without any techno aids they wouldnt be so eager to get on stage.
FatBoy
I think it could be a number of things.
The person could be tone deaf and be totally oblivious to the fact that he is off pitch. Could be that he / she just can't hit certain notes, but yes as Bob stated, then change the key you are playing in, and if you still can't hit it, find another song / vocalist. Monitors could be a problem too I guess, I haven't done vocals on stage, but I have a feeling you would still be able to tell if you are on pitch or not, because of the way we hear ourselves through vibrations in the jaw, might be wrong here.
I guess I am an OK singer, but I am going to get some vocal training in the new year, to try and get better control of me voice, work on any weak spots, and prevent any injury. Also would like someone else to listen and tell me what I am doing right / wrong. I have a fairly powerful voice, but as they say, power is nothing without control.
I'm still looking around for vocal coaches, I have asked on the forum before and got a few contacts, but none of them really appeal to me. Will tackle the job of finding a trainer again in the new year.
Renesongs
I was in a cover band a couple of years back with some fairly competent part time musicians except for the lead vocalist who IMO was completely tone deaf. I thought it was a joke at first and that the guy would go get some voice training or that the band would boot him out, but no. What really mystifies me is that I could understand his atonal yodeling being overlooked by his family or close friends but not by other musicians in the band ???
Squonk
I was forced at gunpoint(My Wife) to go to a Carols by Candlelight thingie and being the musician who cant just sit a relax, I was listening to how the group was performing.
A bunch of singers and a pianist. The singers were OK, kind of battled to reach the right notes, but the pianist was no help at all.
She played the melody line as well, so the singers always sounded out.
And they were a professional singing group?
Another thing, On television when listening to all these live concerts in RSA and the local Idols etc, the vocals are way off key, but the audience are oblivious to the fact. Is it possible that the local Television outside productions are not broadcasting the audio properly or are the vocalists that bad?
I haven't seen many live shows, but one vocalist who blew me away with his ability was Lou Gramm from Foreigner (for those who can remember them).
I will definately going to the Uriah Heep/Deep Purple/Wishbone ash tour in May 2010.
