vic
Guys remember ...Gibson does not only make Les Pauls. They also do electric archtops such as the Super 400, ES175,and many more. Also acoustic flattops,the J160,J200 and so forth. All relatively expensive guitars used and made famous, then and now, by some of the greatest players in the world. So there must be something with this brand that is appealing to great guitarists such as Wes Montgomery, Scotty Moore,you name them. It can't just be the name on the headstock.
AlanRatcliffe
DonovanB wrote
That guitar will have to be very special for me to spend over R10k for it. an dthe Gold top is even more.
C'mon, we're not talking entry level stuff here. What were you expecting? Epiphone prices? ?
Look at the equivalent Gibson, the Standard will set you back over R25K, the equivalent to the goldtop is a VOS goldtop for at least R35K (probably more - I'm going on Thomann prices).
Hell, you can pay over R10K for a Mexican Strat these days.
vic
Keira WitherKay wrote
i would rather play a bashed up les paul that i found 2nd hand than buy new........ or even a copy new.
.... gibson les pauls and 335's were good enough for so many fabulous artists...and so many classic rock songs and jazz too were recorded using them........ than they have got the mojo....... ..and surely thats it you buy a name for the vibe of it...... gibson or even fender....... or even in classical world Ramirez or for some a luthier name like mark maingard or mervyn davis........ and yeah they all not perfect instruments.........
but that vibe/mojo or getting up on the stage with your les paul or fender does influence many players and makes em play better..........
I really believe that many make the mistake to think that a
copy (of anything) is good value for money just because its less expensive than the original. In the long run it's not. Someone mentioned earlier here
investment and holding of value That's only true for
originals albeit a painting, an instrument, etc. And yes,
brand is important in this context. We can't deny that.
There are web sites from which you can buy beautiful and exact
copies (oil and all) of the most famous paintings, and these are so
real it's scarry ! But would YOU buy such and display it in your home?
Wizard
I believe you should separate music and investment.
A musical instrument is designed to give musical pleasure.
So spend your effort on developing your ear so that you can find an instrument that sounds good; irrespective of brand.
You may, however, be in a group where the brand itself contributes significantly to your musical pleasure.
If so ... bad luck !!
That's going to cost you extra ...
Some habits are expensive ?
The best instrument may be a big brand.
In which case ... so what ... buy it.
(but not for the brand; but because it's the best)
chris77
Whoops! Posted this in the wrong thread. Well here she goes - Start Rant :
+1 to the Swedes!
Les Paul and even Stratocaster and Telecaster have become generic terms refering to a certain type of instrument rather than a specific brand. Not quite in league of Frisbee or Jet-Ski (both are registered trademarks by their original manufacturers but have become generic descriptions of all products in their likeness), but getting there.
So if another manufacturer is able to produce those types of instruments to (arguably) better quality specs and at a lesser cost to the consumer, they have my blessing. Competition is the only way to increase all-round quality and performance from established as well as new entrants in the market. So the benefit to us musos are obvious. Better guitars for less.
As for the decal on the headstock - because its a description and not a brand name anymore they can call it a Les Paul, Stratocaster, Telecaster or even Suzie if they want to. As long as they dont make blatant counterfit copies with the mother brands name on the headstock its fine. A Les Paul is a Les Paul no matter who makes it.
But... I wont buy a copy. I think the Gibson Company have a lot to be ashamed of in how they treated their brand (killing a few Lemurs as well Cheesy), but as hyprocital as it is I still want one. I have lusted after a Gibson Les Paul and a Gibson Es-355 (along with a few others models) eversince I started playing and reading up on the instrument. (I blame The Guitar Handbook by Ralph Denyer for this obsession..) So I have learned with my numerous Strat upgrades, from my first Starfire Strat to my Fender MIA, that if I had saved my money from the start I would have been able to buy the Real McCoy a lot sooner. So thats what I will be doing from now on.
Even if I can get a better quality instrument with heavenly tone at a fraction of the price, it still wouldnt be a Gibson. Doesnt make sense does it, but who said Boyhood dreams have to be logical.
Gearhead
Alan Ratcliffe wrote
Just to introduce some balance to the whole Tokai lovefest (or should that be Love Rock fest?) we've been having lately...
Yes please!
Alan Ratcliffe wrote
There has been a lot of talk on the forums (not just this one) about Tokai lately
Way too much imho, getting s & t of it. There are gazillions of copycats out there and at that pricetag, plenty plenty good ones too. I'm okay with people marketing their product but NOT at the expense of crowding my unread messages. By now, I wouldn't want to touch a T@kai for fear of being viewed as part of the hype >☹
DonovanB
Keira WitherKay wrote
why not just have a luthier build you a custom guitar then. i know for just over 10 K luthiers will build you an electric and one to your specs....or even you could piece together a great sounding guitar ........
I reckon thats the way to go for that kind of money. Sean O Niell built himself a strat completely to his own spec with stacked buckers, a Piezo pup in the bridge, coil tapping and the works. Then sold it for just over R10k.
Alan Ratcliffe wrote
C'mon, we're not talking entry level stuff here. What were you expecting? Epiphone prices? ?
I was. Quality aside, budget is important to me. If I had the money to spend on it I would either go for the brand, or a custom made. If I wanted the look and approximate feel, without spending a lot, I'd go cheaper and closer like the Epiphone higher end models...
vic
chris77 wrote
So I have learned with my numerous Strat upgrades, from my first Starfire Strat to my Fender MIA, that if I had saved my money from the start I would have been able to buy the Real McCoy a lot sooner. So thats what I will be doing from now on.
Wise words... ? and stick to it. Sooner than later you will have the guitar/s that you had been gassing for. Good luck.
DonovanB
chris77 wrote
who said Boyhood dreams have to be logical.
I wouldn't buy a Tata Enzo Ferrari copy...
aubs1
DonovanB wrote
chris77 wrote
who said Boyhood dreams have to be logical.
I wouldn't buy a Tata Enzo Ferrari copy...
Hahahahaha.....lol.......you would'nt? ?
Sean
Must have missed the "hype" and numerous threads about Tokai guitars. Unless this has been on other forums. If you get offered the opportunity to play a number of models,has good tone and good build quality ( I don't know if they do, but that's why you play them first ) and comes at a discounted price, then sounds like a good alternative to gibson. Not for me, but sure it will work for many others.
DonovanB
My view is best explained like this...
PRS make a guitar quite similar to the Les Paul. They don't copy it and it is R35k. From What I've seen quality is quite good there.
Ibanez make somthing similar to the Les Paul many other based on Gibsons successful guitars. Their prices vary from vey affordable to very expensive but they haven't copied in ages.
Gibson have the jump on everyone cos they made them first. If someone made a painting of Table Mountain from the South that became famous, any other painting from the same view point would look like a copy. Table Mountain from the north is still Table Mountain, but it won't be a copy.
People pay for originality...
Gearhead
Agreed. If you play a cover, you're not going to sound exactly like the original. And even if you did, would people not rather go see the original artist? So what you do, is take the song and create your own take on it. Think Jimi Hendrix playing All Along The Watchtower, Eric Clapton playing I shot the Sheriff or even Guns N Roses playing Live and Let Die.
Guitars are the same, the PRS you mention is way different from a Les Paul: better finish, better accessibility of the upper frets, choice of hardware and longer scale length (not to mention a trussrod that works like a charm). That is also why it has been such a hit.
AlanRatcliffe
Almost missed this...
Wizard wrote
Wizard wonders: "if Gibson had a different scale length ... would Alan would like them?"
I'd like playing them more, but they wouldn't be a Gibson then - the scale length affects the tone and the feel immensely.
Strangely enough, after trying repeatedly for two decades to get used to playing 24.75" and 24.65" scale lengths and failing, I am getting along surprisingly well with the new cheapy Hamer. I'm not completely comfy on it, and swapping back to another guitar is always a relief, but I'm coping... The chunky neck definitely helps.
PJH
I'd like to throw in my two cents here.
I've been a fulltime muso for about 7 years now. This is what I do and I earn a more than decent living out of it. The band I'm in is fortunate to be extremely busy but to be extremely busy means a huge amount of touring and travelling.
I own a Gibson Les Paul Standard which was bought from new and I have become pretty attached to it. To such an extent that I really don't feel comfortable taking it on planes, etc anymore. I started looking for a "gigging" guitar and was lucky enough to find a Gibson Les Paul Studio. The guitar was literally unplayable when I got it and it had to be sent in for a complete setup. When I got it back I used it exclusively for all of my gigs for about a year.
I was also intrigued by the Tokai range and when they arrived I went to have a look. I ended up trying out about 12 - 15 different Love Rocks. What blew me away was the fact that they were all perfect out of the box. In fact the Goldtop that I did eventually buy was so close to my Standard it was scary. Now bear in mind that my Standard is really good but only after having to have it also completely setup from scratch. These Tokais didn't need anything like that.
For me you either buy a guitar for investment or for allowing you to do what you do to earn a living. These guitars are the tools of my trade and therefore I want the best possible option. My Standard is not an option so I want the next best thing. Gibson are no longer in the country so they aren't an option. Epiphone in my opinion after playing a Gibson Les Paul Standard for 14 years are not in the same league. The Tokai is the closest thing I've come across.
PRS does not interest me. I love the Les Paul shape and feel. The Tokai Goldtop that I bought I fetched on the Saturday afternoon and played it at a gig that night. I didn't have to do anything to it, the pick ups are standard and the guitar plays beautifully. Thats what I would expect from Gibson. Sadly thats not the case. They are too expensive and even when I bought mine in 1995 I had to try seven different ones before I was fairly happy.
I am so impressed with this Tokai that I have sold the Studio and am about to buy another Love Rock. Yes, they're that good.
So, to sum up all I want is a guitar that sounds, plays and looks like a Les Paul. It does not have to say Gibson on the headstock. It is just a tool that gets the job done but in a manner that is a pleasure to play and doesn't cost an arm and a leg.
Maybe one day when Gibson gets their act together companies like Tokai won't be around but I can't see that happening in the near future.
A lot of people have expressed their dissatisfaction about all the "hype" surrounding these guitars. All I can say about that is that they should be grateful that there is another affordable alternative available to us in SA. No one is forcing anybody to buy these guitars. At the end of the day its still and always will be up the individual.
Cheers,
Peter.
DonovanB
so basically Peter you are happy to pay that much for the Tokai, and I am not.
It always boils down to that. Personal preferences.
A copy of anything can easily be better than the original, the fact will always remain that it is a copy.
I do like the idea that Tokai are positioning themselves as quality guitar makers, but unfortunately they are not positioning themselves as original which immediately puts the brand name in the leagues of Starfire, Johnson, Venson, and Samick.
Ultimately even when they do start producing original material, so to speak, then they will be in the leagues of Ibanez, Aria, Crafter and Epiphone in terms of brand positioning.
joel
The whole original/copy + (clone/knock-off/fake) debate is not unique to this industry.
Almost every successful product in any industry/hobby/sport etc on earth , is exposed to this exact scenario. :-[
DonovanB
Isn't it strange because we won't assume an identical looking acoustic guitar is a copy...
PJH
DonovanB wrote
so basically Peter you are happy to pay that much for the Tokai, and I am not.
It always boils down to that. Personal preferences.
A copy of anything can easily be better than the original, the fact will always remain that it is a copy.
I do like the idea that Tokai are positioning themselves as quality guitar makers, but unfortunately they are not positioning themselves as original which immediately puts the brand name in the leagues of Starfire, Johnson, Venson, and Samick.
Ultimately even when they do start producing original material, so to speak, then they will be in the leagues of Ibanez, Aria, Crafter and Epiphone in terms of brand positioning.
Donovan, of course you're entitled to your opinion. I'm entitled to mine. I really couldn't care less what anyone thinks of what brand of guitar I play or anyone else plays. All I'm saying is that these guitars are worth every cent. Thats all that matters to me. Quite frankly paying any less than R10k for a new guitar in my opinion narrows the choice considerably. When this is your living the choice you make has a direct bearing on your performance.
I average 3 - 4 gigs a week. We do about 250 gigs a year. This isn't a little sideline hobby for me. This is my livelihood.
Cheers,
Peter.
Banditman
@ vic - It's not a leap of faith that's the problem - I've played a friend's ES & loved the thing completely - it's the leap of finances. It's either get the business to the next level or buy toys. I will get an ES when the time's right & the right one revelas itself.
Alan makes a very good point about Les-ish underrated guitars. The USA-made Hamer Studio's a beaut. Try one if you can find one. I played one at a London dealer & if I'd had the cash it would have left with me.
Reading PJH's post though I can't help but wonder if we're looking at this the wrong way. Forget investment etc. Why not look at the Tokia as "a guitar" and evaluate accordingly.
