Random thoughts on Gibson v. other manufacturers

AlanRatcliffe · 2009-12-04T14:37:22+00:00

Just to introduce some balance to the whole Tokai lovefest (or should that be Love Rock fest?) we've been having lately... A Gibson model guitar retains fa...

Random thoughts on Gibson v. other manufacturers

Gearhead

singemonkey wrote: What we're talking about, is people wanting to feel like they have Van Gogh's Sunflowers. Now only one person can, and it's probably too valuable to display.

IIrc it is owned by the Rijksmuseum in Amsterdam and would be on display every day of the week ?

Wizard

Two side effects of this subject for me:
a) I've learned about and gained some serious respect for this Tokai brand
b) I went to PJH's website to see what it sounded like ... and I really like PJH's music !! Nice !!!

DonovanB

PJH wrote: All I'm saying is that these guitars are worth every cent. Thats all that matters to me.

Thats good to hear. I am always glad to hear someone say that they are happy with a guitar no matter what brand, because it means you genuinely like it. I genuinely like my Epiphone Les Paul and My MIM Fender. Like you, I play them on stage and make money from it...

Quite frankly paying any less than R10k for a new guitar in my opinion narrows the choice considerably. When this is your living the choice you make has a direct bearing on your performance.

Not everyone HAS that budget available. I also disagree that you need the absolute Best guitar to play well. Give John Mayer a Squier and he will do well.
In Fact here he is playing a first act guitar, which is a cheap US brand available in Department stores...

and Slash did an ad like that as well. Slash and Zakk Wylde both have signature Epiphone Les Pauls out.

How did this become about Gibson vs Tokai again anyway? When you think about it, every guitar is a copy of the prototype. Some may be made to better standards than others. I'm just saying for the price of a poor quality Gibson or a high quality copy, I'd rather commission a good local Luthier to make a copy of my own choice to my own specifications where I have some sort of hand in the quality control of my own instrument.

PJH

DonovanB wrote:
PJH wrote: All I'm saying is that these guitars are worth every cent. Thats all that matters to me.
Thats good to hear. I am always glad to hear someone say that they are happy with a guitar no matter what brand, because it means you genuinely like it. I genuinely like my Epiphone Les Paul and My MIM Fender. Like you, I play them on stage and make money from it...

Quite frankly paying any less than R10k for a new guitar in my opinion narrows the choice considerably. When this is your living the choice you make has a direct bearing on your performance.
Not everyone HAS that budget available. I also disagree that you need the absolute Best guitar to play well. Give John Mayer a Squier and he will do well.
In Fact here he is playing a first act guitar, which is a cheap US brand available in Department stores...

and Slash did an ad like that as well. Slash and Zakk Wylde both have signature Epiphone Les Pauls out.

How did this become about Gibson vs Tokai again anyway? When you think about it, every guitar is a copy of the prototype. Some may be made to better standards than others. I'm just saying for the price of a poor quality Gibson or a high quality copy, I'd rather commission a good local Luthier to make a copy of my own choice to my own specifications where I have some sort of hand in the quality control of my own instrument.

Yes, I hear what you're saying about not everyone has a budget to afford an expensive guitar but then don't make judgements on people who choose to play a certain make of guitar even if it is a replica of something else.

I also didn't say that you need the best guitar available. The fact that you'd rather get someone to make you a guitar is once again your choice. Good for you.

The only reason that this has become a Gibson vs Tokai issue is because you've made it one.

I happened to use that example because those are the only guitars that I play.

Ray

Alan Ratcliffe wrote: Some great discussion here - exactly what I was hoping to stir up.

Handbags are flying now! Maybe try this. Buy one of both. Play them for a while and see which you prefer and sell the other. If it's the Tokai then you are in luck because you will probably be able to sell the Gibson for more than you paid in a few years. If it's the Gibson you prefer, then you either going to take a loss or have a good backup. But if you sell the Gibson you better do it before the Gibson bashing campaign becomes really effective. I have read quite a few reviews for both. Gibson reviews often say not the quality they used to be. Tokai (and some other brands) always say "good Gibson copies".

vic

Let's talk a bit about quality issues with Gibson...I guess most people here refer to to their Les Pauls ? I remember Alan mentioned in earlier posts some quality issues he had way back when he repaired guitars.... and I responded by saying that I never had any quality issues (lucky me) with the LP's which I owned over a period of several years (Standards, Customs and RI's)..... quality issues such as unstable intonation, poor fretwork,necks,loose machine heads,binding,finish,pickups and pup selector switch, what else? (a Post factory fret polish and a good oiling of the FB is always a good idea and is recommended imho). I also adjust the action to my liking...
How about the rest of the guys on this Forum ? Any serious issues you wish to share with us...?
How about quality issues with other makes of guitars? (Just to get a balance)

PS: I had a pre-owned 1996 Custom which did not stay in tune (this is misery)....even after playing a few chords or rifs it would be out of tune, until I changed the strings.

DonovanB

PJH wrote: Yes, I hear what you're saying about not everyone has a budget to afford an expensive guitar but then don't make judgements on people who choose to play a certain make of guitar even if it is a replica of something else.

That exactly my point. I don't mind anyone spending whatever on a guitar. I do mind those who do telling those of us who don't that we are either dof to buy something else or we should be doing everything in our power to get the expensive ones.

I'm not judging, funny enough most Gibson owners would never give any copy a chance because you value playability over brand name.

There are so many analogies to choose from, Paintings, Cars, a band playing a cover of your favourite song... no matter what the quality, I always expect a copy to be cheaper in price.

I know you play hundreds of gigs a year and somehow expect me to bow down to your supremacy as a musician, but ultimately in the end you know we are both looking at the same thing from 2 different sides. I have never played any of your guitars so I am definitely not saying they or you are rubbish. please understand that...

My point is basically that you wouldn't pay the same for a rare Elvis Presley DVD as a Melvis Presley DVD no matter how good he is.

Ray wrote: Maybe try this. Buy one of both.

Not at those prices... ?

vic

@Don and Peter.....you guys are talking to one another explaining your position so to speak...but neither is really listening. As I see it, Don prefers the real thing while Peter has the real thing (LP Standard), but at the same time does not mind to play a Gibson copy because in his opinion its good value ito price and tone.
Don, on the other hand, is not prepared to lay out say R17k, on a copy, but would rather get the real thing (perhaps used) at that price....?
Now there is nothing wrong with either argument, AND, both of you respect one another's point of view.....SO WHAT'S THE ISSUE?? ?

Banditman

Quite why there's so much venom aimed at Gibson is hard to say. As vic points out, they've made some fantastic instruments over the years (the Les Paul is only one line) which have been used to make a fair chunk of the music we love.

Would it not be fair to say that Gibson hating or Gibson gripes fall into the following basic categories:

1. Those who don't get on with the scale length.
2. Those who prefer other tones.
3. Those who love Gibsons but aren't happy with the quality issues for the price you have to pay.
4. Those who love the guitars but can't stand the current corporate attitude.
5. Those who hate the guitars because they're expensive & a benchmark.

The first three IMO are valid and rational reasons to prefer other types or brands. The last two are emotional, no.5 particularly so and before anyone accuses me of being a wealthy snob, I bought mine 2nd hand & she's not a 100 point axe (but she's sweet as honey). An emotional response is normal for any human with a pulse, but handbags at dawn is not an intelligent way to discuss it.

The honest truth is that just about every electric solid body out there not made by the likes of Andreas, Parker, Teufel et al is a copy or an evolution of the electric holy trinity: Tele, Strat and Les Paul.

PJH

I know you play hundreds of gigs a year and somehow expect me to bow down to your supremacy as a musician, but ultimately in the end you know we are both looking at the same thing from 2 different sides. I have never played any of your guitars so I am definitely not saying they or you are rubbish. please understand that...

My point is basically that you wouldn't pay the same for a rare Elvis Presley DVD as a Melvis Presley DVD no matter how good he is.

Ray wrote: Maybe try this. Buy one of both.

Not at those prices... ?
[/quote]

Obviously my point to this whole debate has got lost somewhere along the way.

Donovan, I never said anything about expecting you to "bow to my supremacy" because I do a lot of gigs. The point I was trying to make was that because I do a lot of gigs I need a guitar that will make me happy AFTER I decided to leave my Gibson at home. (I still do love my Gibson in case you didn't notice) The Love Rock does that for me.

Regarding the pricing yes, I fully agree with you. I wouldn't pay the same price for a replica either. Th thing is that I didn't. I paid under R10 000 for my Tokai. That is less than half the price of a NEW Gibson LP Std (if you can get it here) and it is as close to the real thing as you can get.

Ray, I did exactly what you suggrsted. I tried both and decided to sell my Studio. The Love Rock was a better guitar. Simple as that.

I hooe that this clears it up for once and for all.

Cheers,

Peter.

AlanRatcliffe

vic wrote: Now there is nothing wrong with either argument, AND, both of you respect one another's point of view.....SO WHAT'S THE ISSUE?? ?

+1 vic. And there's certainly no need to get carried away about it. Please keep it friendly.

The basic thoughts that sparked this thread were that there are pros and cons to both the quality copies and the original guitars that inspired them. Depending on your situation and/or personal preferences one or the other will make more sense for you. The two of you have actually proved that point. But there's no right or wrong choice here, just what's right for you.

Banditman

ON A SEPARATE NOTE (pun intended)

That's some nice stuff on your site there, PJH. Shades of Deep Purple, Boston & a lot of other groups of that genre.

LP-type sound necessary indeed.

Keira-WitherKay

damn i love this site............ and i love healthy debate .passionate debate like this is awesome and quite essential......... and so far i think most of us can get passionate about our instruments without being "nasty" or 'personal" so yeah bring on the debates.......... but leave out the 'nastiness' and lets hear what we really feel about things........ no need to be too polite now.........

as i said love this forum heheheh

singemonkey

This is not a cult. You don't have to join. ? I'm sure many electric guitarists could be happy their whole lives without ever playing a Tokai, or any other Japanese copy of 50's - 60's Gibson guitars. But for some people, this is exactly what they've been looking for. Now that the choice is here, people should know about it, in case they are one of those people. That's all.

For me, finding out that the MIJ Tokai Les Pauls were higher spec than my Gibson Les Paul, didn't make me feel dof for getting the Gibson. I love that guitar and I'll never sell it until I have children who are starving. Rather, it just makes me excited that I can get a 50's spec Les Paul like I never hoped to be able to afford.

PJH

Banditman wrote: ON A SEPARATE NOTE (pun intended)

That's some nice stuff on your site there, PJH. Shades of Deep Purple, Boston & a lot of other groups of that genre.

LP-type sound necessary indeed.

Thanks Bandit,

Much appreciated. If you're interested there are a few recent tracks on my Soundclick page. "Cast in Stone (parts 1 & 2) is the title track to the new Off the Edge album.

Cheers,

Peter.

Manfred-Klose

gibson threads seem to be very popular nowadays :?

aja

DonovanB wrote:no matter what the quality, I always expect a copy to be cheaper in price.

I don't understand why you say this. If you get a luthier to make a les paul copy for you that is as good as an original, would you not expect it to be expensive?

Gearhead

Yeah Aja, but that tends to be hand made with branded aftermarket parts. We're talking all-in-house series production here.

DonovanB

PJH wrote: Regarding the pricing yes, I fully agree with you. I wouldn't pay the same price for a replica either. Th thing is that I didn't. I paid under R10 000 for my Tokai. That is less than half the price of a NEW Gibson LP Std (if you can get it here) and it is as close to the real thing as you can get.

ah so we're on the same page then.... would you have paid higher that R16k for it? Before you found out about the quality?

I owned an Epiphone LP100, which wasn't great at all. It played allright but it wasnt outstanding. I was ok with that because I got it for REALLY cheap. Thats what I look for in a copy. Cheap. like me ?

aja wrote: I don't understand why you say this. If you get a luthier to make a les paul copy for you that is as good as an original, would you not expect it to be expensive?

It would be, but better than the original would be my aim. Custom fretboard inlays or a custom paint job. Getting your own Goldtop done seems cheaper than buying a goldtop. It will also have the benefit of being unique and not in any catalogue ( I certainly wouldn't take him a catalogue and say make me one of these). You could take elements from 4 of your favourite guitars and stick it into one. I guess that's why...

ok that's about the end of my healthy debate...

AlanRatcliffe

DonovanB wrote: It would be, but better than the original would be my aim. Custom fretboard inlays or a custom paint job. Getting your own Goldtop done seems cheaper than buying a goldtop.

Custom-built, cheaper and better than the original? You are sadly mistaken there I'm afraid.