Another backing w/o main vox

AlanRatcliffe

Here's another one I've been working on lately. Didn't I? Pop/rock backing for a song my wife wrote called "Didn't I?". Pretty straightforward with everything but the main vox recorded.

A few titbits for the recording enthusiasts:

The main rhythm guitar parts are my Cort, neck & bridge together - the piezo signal is delayed with no direct signal to bounce off the magnetic guitar sound, creating an interlocking two guitar "ping-pong" rhythm with one guitar. The two are panned wide and kept fairly dry to really stand out from one another - more reverb and they would "mask" together, forming more of a single, coherent sound.
The occasional harmony guitars are the Sanox (humbucker) guitar. Kept low in the mix to support the voice rather than be "lead" instruments. Levels may have to change when the main vox is tracked and mixed in.
The "12-string" part was recorded a while ago and is actually a high-strung guitar, rather than a 12-string.
Synth parts are done on guitar too (as with most of my stuff). Softsynth is AAS Lounge Lizard electric piano. FX are the built in phaser, ping-pong delay - panned so it comes in "inside" the two guitar tracks so it doesn't mask with them when it comes in in the second chorus and busy end chorus. There's a warm pad track in there too, but it's mixed in kinda subtle.
The bass is both humbucking pickups, but recorded on to two separate tracks and processed separately (I modded it to have an output for each pickup) so I could mix the crunchy rock bridge pickup with the "girth" of the neck bucker and change the balance at any time up to mixdown.

Any critique welcome (feel free to be brutal if there's something you don't like - I can take it). I must replace the main guitar as I occasionally lose the timing a little (especially in the last chorus, where I muddy up the whole thing) That's the problem with delay - it repeats your mistakes too ?.

Also, for those who took a listen to Where the Wild Things Are in Manfred's What synths do you use? thread. I've changed a few things (tuned the guitar :-[) and did an improved mix to soften out he violin and bring out the French horns:

Where the Wild Things Are

Orchestra courtesy of Edirol Orchestral. Tabla programmed using Swar Shala. Nylon guitar recorded using a single small diaphragm mic (AKG C535) at a distance of about 1m in front and 15cm below the guitar, pointing up towards the neck joint.

Manfred-Klose

Ok here is my comments:

Where the wild things are:

Likes:
*The orchestral sounds are well balanced with the rest of the instruments.
*The bass sound smooth, just a bit more sustain to add realism.
*Acoustic guitar sounds nice.
*The violins is perfect.

Dislikes:
*The percussion sounds a bit far away, and little to bright sounding.
*Something in the mix is out of tune?
*Did you use different reverb sounds on the instruments?

Didn't I:

like:
*instruments well balanced.
*Ping pong delay is unique, like it!
*Great prog drum sound, what did you use?

Dislikes:
*The pieze guitar pickup sounds a bit raw, but it gets the job done.
*leave some space for when the lead guitar comes in, drop the level a bit of rhytmn guitar while the lead guitar is playing, bring the level back when lead is finished, only a little bit, not so that is is audible to the listener, think is is called ducking?

Anyway, I hope my comments helped you out a bit.
cheers.

AlanRatcliffe

Brilliant. That's more or less what I wanted to hear.

Where the wild things are:
Bass - That's all down to my playing I'm afraid. I make no claims to being a good bassist who can change feel at the drop of the hat - I'm happy if I can get through a take without too many wrong notes or timing errors. My bass tracks are usually compressed to hell to compensate for my "natural dynamics" ?
Percussion - yup, you're right too much reverb then I tried to make them cut through with a bit too much high end.
Tuning - there's a few bad notes in the guitar track, particularly at the F maj7, where I keep on wanting to play the wrong thing. I'll keep on retracking the guitar until I get it perfect.
Reverb - Guilty! I used Edirol Orchestral's built in reverb, which has a different character to the Lexicon I'm using on the other instruments. I thought I could get away with it, but obviously not... Very well spotted! Damn - changing reverbs now throws the mix out completely.

Didn't I:
Drums are from Steinberg's VST Drum sessions loop CDs. I import every drum's track separately so I can mix and process them separately. Not having an overheads track and all the leakage, you lose some ambience, but gain a lot of control. LOTS of mixing and matching measures and even single hits to create a complete drum take, but you get the vibe and variation of a real drummer.

Ducking - Yes that is what you call it and I think you are right. Usually done with a sidechain, but I'll try it with automation. About 3dB cut should do it I think.

Thanks Manfred - you've been a great help.

Manfred-Klose

it's a pleasure, thanks for giving me a chance to criticize, it gives me chance to exercise my ear, and at the end of the day i gain experience out of listening, and be a better producer. The way i program drums is almost the same(Cubase SX3): 1.Get the best samples for the type of song. 2.every sample has its own track 3.send all the tracks to a group channel and add compresion and reverb to the overall drumset. 4.EQ and compress the samples seperatly as well. Its like recording a live drum set, it takes a long to program this way, but it sounds awsome!!! here is a picture of what it looks like:

AlanRatcliffe

Yes, our drum processes are pretty much the same, although I use the track sends for reverb rather than an insert on the drum group. That lets me control the amount of reverb on each drum so I can keep the kick relatively dry and use a different (usually gated) reverb on the snare. Oddly enough, I don't usually use compression or much EQ on drums, maybe because I tend to use well recorded loops.

I have a few loop libraries that are recorded pretty much the way you would record them yourself in a studio - overheads, snare, hat, kick, tom and even room mics all separate. Haven't used them yet, but looking forward to it.

Anyone else have any opinions on the tracks?

sepheritoh

Didn't I: I really like the overall feel of the song. The rhythm guitars is a bit thin, but it is kinda difficult to judge while there is no vocals. It will probably fit well when vocals are added. When the lead guitar comes in I would have brought the lead out more. I am not criticizing, just commenting because you asked. What I like about it is the clear transparent mix which comes with all your songs so nicely. It really is great to hear such a well balanced mixed arrangement. Not a single sound is too loud and every instrument can be identified individually in the mix. Something I wish I could do one day.

Where the wild things are: I commented on this in the other thread, but it is worth it to repeat my comments about your clear and transparent mixing. Really lovely to listen to. The main riff reminds a bit of Uriah Heep's Wizard. The mixing on the Nylon string is a bit thin and is sounds like could as well have been a steel string as it does not bring the wood and body of the sound out enough. That was probably done on purpose to keep it from clashing with the cello.

Overall, thank you for posting this. I can only learn a lot about mixing by listening to your stuff. Please keep feeding us!! ? ?

AlanRatcliffe

Thanks seph.

Yes, the guitars are bright overall - I tend to do that for poppier stuff, which is why I often use 12-string or Nashville tuned guitars. Jangle city with no Rickenbackers.

You and Manfred both feel the lead needs to stand out a bit more, so maybe I'm just being too shy of my playing. I'll experiment with it a bit.

Uriah Heep's Wizard

Hey! It does, doesn't it? Love that song. In my defense, a lot of things use the D - Dsus4 - Cadd9 - G thing. More than a feeling, etc...

The mixing on the Nylon string is a bit thin

Yeah. I naturally tend to a more Flamenco sound on nylon and use Flamenco strings. I had a fuller sound at first, which would have worked better in a simpler production, but as it is, I felt it just blended in and got lost. As it is, it's going to take some careful level juggling to get it to blend in at times and stand out at others.

Getting instruments to unmask and stand out in a mix is pretty easy - just let each have it's own space in the stereo spectrum and give each it's own frequencies. In a dense arrangement I'll often sit with a piece of graph paper and draw in where in the frequency spectrum each instrument is and figure out where they overlap then EQ out the overlap with one or the other, or even experiment changing octaves to move instruments out of the way of each other. I'm careful to EQ out the extreme lows of any track if the instrument does not explicitly need them.

Riaan

Hey Alan those are two great tunes.

Manfred-Klose

I control the amount of reverb that comes from the group track back to sample track via the insert.

Experiment with Compression, it can really get the song in a certain groove.

Try this technique when looking for that perfect compression setting:
1.Set the Ratio to infinate.
2.Bring down threshold to lowest setting.
3.Bring up the overall gain of compressor.
4.Listen to the front end of the sound, set the attack(Smooth sounding)
5.Listen as the comp fades out, set the release.(sustain)
6.Bring down the Gain.
7.Bring up the threshold.
8.Set the ratio, remember not to overcompress.

You probably know this technique, but it strange that very few people know how a compressor works.

Hope this makes sense to those people out there trying to crack the compressor!!!
And remember always have fun!!!!

sepheritoh

Alan Ratcliffe wrote:
Hey! It does, doesn't it? Love that song. In my defense, a lot of things use the D - Dsus4 - Cadd9 - G thing. More than a feeling, etc...

I didn't mean that in a bad way at all. Yes, that is a very nice chord sequence / riff. Isn't Here come the sun & Badge also around the same structure? I think Shawn Philips also used it somewhere.

AlanRatcliffe

No offence taken - A good song to be reminded of ?

I think everybody uses some variation of that chord sequence some time. John Lennon said:" There's nothing new under the sun". The important thing is making it your own, and not just copying it. Look at blues to see just how much you can do with a I-IV-V sequence.

Renesongs

I find when I listen to anything the first time I find a lot of things "wrong" with it. This is largely because it is , a) unfamiliar to me, b) it's not exactly the way I would have done it. So my usual approach before passing an overly fussy audiophilic criticism on anything is to allow a day or so to go pass, listen to it again and see what stands out. After my 3rd listening of both tracks the only thing that stands out for me is that the whoops on the tabla's are a tad too prominent in places on the second track

AlanRatcliffe

Thanks Rene!

So what do you do if even after working on a track for years you still find a lot of things "wrong"? ? The bane of my productions is that I always feel they can be better. I find having others critique them is a great way to make me hear things with a different perspective and zero in on small things that I have become completely used to from repeated listenings.

Listening again I think you are right about the "whoops" from the low tabla (actually pitch bends from the player pushing down on the skin with one hand while striking with the other). Looking at the waveform, they are 3-4dB louder than the rest of the hits on that drum, so they do tend to jump out a bit - I like this, but it is maybe a little too much in places. I've been experimenting with a 4:1 compressor with the threshold set carefully to trigger only on the bends and it seems to be working well - they are still slightly louder, but not so they jump out of the mix the way they were.

Renesongs

The bane of my productions is that I always feel they can be better.

Analysis paralysis, or never let perfection get in the way of a good piece of work. I don't think any serious musician or production engineer has ever got to the point where they think the work cannot be made any better. However life is short and there is much to be done.

zero in on small things that I have become completely used to from repeated listenings.

I mostly work on between 3 and 10 different pieces of music concurrently over a period of months, this way I don't become too obsessed with perfecting any one of them, they kind of organically grow themselves over a period of time. Some pieces I revisit only years later - (According to my journal, the guitar rhythm for Marrakesh was conceived in May 1978, I put the bass and lead in this year, if all goes well I will finish it by March 2020 ?)

I find having others critique them is a great way to make me hear things with a different perspective

Take criticism from where it comes - it depends who you want to be appreciated and respected by, other musicians? audiophiles? marketing maniacs? or ordinary people?

Looking at the waveform, they are 3-4dB louder

The ravages of age - After surviving a screeching toddler, a psychotic yipping Border Colley, 15 Budgies, playing in rock bands, and growing a bit older, my hearing is not as reliable as used to be. Isn't computer software great, it now shows us what we should be hearing- Beethoven would have been good for another 50 years.