G.A.S Afflicted - Roland Guitar Synths vs Other Available?

V8

Hi All,

Almost finished modding the Strat (Thanks to all for the info & suggestions). Now moving onto reviewing my effects and amplification.

Currently running a Line6 POD X3 live w/Crybaby Bass Wah in the FX Loop. Originally purchased as a all-in-one solution to replace noisy stompboxes & do some ad-hoc recording. Guitar tones are good to very good, especially considering I am not running a Full-range PA style amp, but a trusty and abused guitar amp w/12in speaker. Recording results are very, very good, one of the most impressive things about this unit.

My favourite function of the POD is the dual tone paths. Tone one runs a pretty standard "Diety Crunch" amp sim - Metallica-ish with lots of mids & the Bass Wah. Tone two is a bass sim w/Sub Octaver (down one octave). From this combo, I get a thick tone that doesn't thin out when the Wah kicks in, but sounds more interesting as the Bass Wah is used like a mid/low sweep (think DJ mixers).

But I was thinking that I'd prefer to run a Proper Synth tool as tone two - and I'm very unimpressed with the POD's functionality on this front. One of the Buzzsaw synths is ok, the Sub-Octaver is good, but I find the rest near unusable. Tracking is an issue as well as (imho) poor sound quality that perhaps is a sign of my inability to RTFM all the info?

My thinking is replacing the POD with a Roland VG-99 or similar. I love guitar sounds, but since I play a more with DJ's & Electronic based music, it would be really sweet to be able to get a synth to replicate strings, trumpets, etc...as well as a monsterous low-end that I could assign to strings 5&6 while leaving 1-4 'guitar like'. Also the ability to output midi would make certain other aspects interesting (like outputs to lighting, or syncing with ableton?)

Any thoughts, experience on this?

Many thanks,

V8

AlanRatcliffe

The "synths" in devices like the POD and even the VG-99 are not guitar synths, they are modellers. Worlds apart. They effect the guitar sound to make it sound something like a synth, but don't actually do the pitch to MIDI conversion that marks a "real" guitar synth and lets you control other synths. Many are however monophonic, so that may be why you are complaining of tracking issues (modelling does not track).

The VG-99 does have pitch to MIDI conversion, which it uses primarily for harmonising, and they have been nice enough to supply a MIDI output, so you can use it to drive external synths, but it has no onboard synth modules. All the internal "synth" sounds are models (i.e. faked). The VG-99 pitch to MIDI isn't state of the art either and if you are complaining of the tracking on a model, you will not like the up to 18ms delay on a Roland pitch-MIDI system.

You can keep your POD for guitar sounds and then add in a hex pickup and pitch to MIDI converter like the Roland GI-20 or the Terratec Axon (AX-50 or AX-100). The Axon is the better unit, faster and more accurate (especially if you play with a plectrum) and also has a lot more capability for experimentation with things like pick splits (where you can have different sounds based on how near or far from the bridge you pick). The Axon AX-100 also has a GM soundset built in (via a Yamaha chip) - not wonderful, but serviceable.

A lot of the live performers using guitar synth are Using Ableton, BTW. Many are using it as a host for both software guitar amps and softsynths so that they can create and store patches with guitar, synth and mixer parameters for each song. the only hardware you need then is an audio interface, a Hex pickup system, a Guitar to MIDI converter and a computer. Maybe a footcontroller or two for realtime input too. Once you go that route, the limit is only your imagination.

V8

Thank you Dr Ratcliffe!

I'm cured of this bout of G.A.S (grin). Your explanations made a lot of sense to this layman - thanks! Spent some more quality time with the POD, did indeed read in the manual that most of their synths models (yes referred to as models) are monophonic, doh!

I've tried a few audio interfaces (nothing spectacular) and could not take much more than a 6ms latency (Mainly a plectrum player), 18ms for sure would frustrate me - to no end. I had a read about the Axon, that mutli spilts across strings/pick position and fretting position are insane! I guess I'll wait for Roland & Axon to team up and produce a plug 'n play solution for the less-tech of us. Although only being limited by imagination is a good thing, so undoubtablly I'll be looking at a 'B' setup of using the laptop w/amplitude or guitar rig, Ableton and some patience.

Thanks again,

V8 (aka Meron)

AlanRatcliffe

V8 wrote: I'm cured of this bout of G.A.S (grin).

Good for you. Wish I could say the same. ?

I've tried a few audio interfaces (nothing spectacular) and could not take much more than a 6ms latency (Mainly a plectrum player), 18ms for sure would frustrate me - to no end.

The Axon is significantly faster - particularly on the low notes - but higher notes are generally much faster on either system - the problem usually comes in on the lower notes. But at the end of the day there are severe limitations in the physics of it all - the guitar sound has to happen before it can be turned into MIDI data, so there will always be a delay.

There are also ways around the delay - I usually use slower synth sounds and mix them with the real guitar sound, which gives the attack. Also many sounds like strings and pads are naturally slow in attack, so they do not need fast tracking to sound real. Percussive instruments remain a problem because of the fast attack. I've also been fiddling with arpeggiators a lot lately, which can pick up some of the timing slack.

I guess I'll wait for Roland & Axon to team up and produce a plug 'n play solution for the less-tech of us.

Not gonna happen as they are competitors in the field. Roland is putting most of their eggs in the modelling basket with the VGs and the Guitar synth stuff seems to have been sidelined in recent years.

Don't get me wrong - MIDIguitar is still a feasable instrument - you just have to work within certain limitations. As with anything musical, you work with what you have and make the most of it. I use a lot of MIDIguitar in my comp entries, all done realtime:
Pad sounds: http://ratcliffe.co.za/music/a alan_big_intro.mp3
String sounds doubling the guitar: http://ratcliffe.co.za/music/a_alan_arabic_ringtone.mp3
Everything but drums: http://ratcliffe.co.za/music/a-alan-junkyard_dogs.mp3
Everything from one guitar part: http://ratcliffe.co.za/music/alan_industrial.mp3
Arpeggiator: http://ratcliffe.co.za/music/alan_heavy.mp3