Thoughts on pedal offerings?

matta

Hi Guys,

As you know I'm nearing the completion of Fuzzsilla, my first 'boutique' style pedal offering.

It has been a true labour of love and I've learnt SO MUCH along the way. I'm at the stage where I've been looking locally for metal work fabricators, milling companies, powder coaters and silkscreeners to complete the 'visual' part of the design. I've got several quotes from different companies, all seems to come in at a similar price points, all being quite a bit more than I expected :-\

Since I've got ties with China, having had several products made there like switches, meters etc I decided to start looking around at reputable companies that could do these for me, many of the SAME pedals are made by the same manufacturers under OEM branding and I have a few contacts I've built up over the years.

Alot of these companies have the same approach, which I dislike, and why China has been given so much stick. The mentality is volume and the lowest possible cost, though I have found a suitable partner who shares my mindset. They use ONLY the best parts: WIMA poly caps, Elna lytics, True Bypass (implementing RG Keen's Millienium switching with a better quality 2PDT over the typical 'cheaper' 3PDT), Diecast aluminum enclosures (MXR style/Hammond 1590B)... all parts I use n my own mods/offering.

They are not cheap, but they do provide QUALITY and I'm not interested in sub-par, I want boutique style offerings, at affordable prices.

They already have several pedals in the works, 3 types of gain based effects, building on well known designs like the Rat (Distortion), Big Muff (Fuzz) & Tube Screamer (Overdrive), with better parts and a couple mods, some of which are the similar/same as the offerings from Keely, Analogman etc, many revolve around changing the operation of clipping diodes, both with types and characteristics, i.e symmetrical vs asymmetrical clipping.

I think I may just be brave/stupid enough to have a go at doing a run, it costs several thousands of dollars, but I have a longing to provide local muso's with better quality gear at affordable prices.

Having laid that out, I guess my question is what would YOU like to see in a pedal line? I have an affinity with gain based effects vs say modulation/delays, but I can't speak for the masses, so I'd love to hear your thoughts, what would you guys like to see?

Any thoughts? Feel free to tell me I'm crazy...

Cheers

Matt

Bob-Dubery

matta wrote Having laid that out, I guess my question is what would YOU like to see in a pedal line? I have an affinity with gain based effects vs say modulation/delays, but I can't speak for the masses, so I'd love to hear your thoughts, what would you guys like to see?

Any thoughts? Feel free to tell me I'm crazy...

I like modulation effects - in principle. I find many of the modern implementations lacking. In particular chorus pedals - they sound thin these days, and I think they add a lot of compression. Back circa 1981 I had an Ibanez chorus that sounded marvellous, a big, rich sound. They don't sound like that any more. The Carl Martin pedal that I bought gets some of the way there, but I think that despite the way they're marketing it - as a "vintage" style pedal - they've gone for their own take on the chorus effect and it certainly doesn't cover the same territory as the late 70s early 80s Japanese pedals did.

A uni-vibe type effect might be interesting, but I think these are hard to do. All the ones I've heard either sound nothing like a uni-vibe (they may actually be interesting, but don't sound like what you buy them to sound like) or they are expensive and consume a lot of power because they use photo cells internally.

Or maybe just go for new variations on the modulation/delay theme. Part of the fun of stomp boxes was that they were all so different and occasionally downright weird. The Boss DDL didn't sound like the Ibanez - they had their own character. I also thought things got a little more boring when the pedals all started getting the same size. You no longer got interesting, characterful pedals like the Roland Space Echo or something that I saw Trevor Rabin using circa 1976 called a "Dizzy Tone".

But do the sums please Matt. I wonder if there's enough of a market in SA to absorb boutique pedals to the point where you'd go past "break even" and start making some cash.

DonovanB

X-rated Bob wrote But do the sums please Matt. I wonder if there's enough of a market in SA to absorb boutique pedals to the point where you'd go past "break even" and start making some cash.

what about exporting them?

AlanRatcliffe

Aside from the various types of distortion pedals, I'd say you need at least a compressor and a phaser.

TomCat

Look at MI Audio pedals in Australia.......Small Boutique manufacturer who now has an international market......

At always boils down to numbers in the end.

I see two routes here

1. Small Hand manufactured boutique pedals a a high price.....Small volumes
2. More commercial approach...bigger market.....maybe small compromise on part quality to keep to a price point/affordability but made up with volume sales.

It's a difficult one to balance out......

In terms of a line......maybe keep it small and only focus for now on gain based pedals and build a reputation first and then later broaden to other/modulation type pedals...just my 2c worth....If you look again at MI Audio they seem to have two pedals that stand out...these being the Crunch Box and the Blues Pro.....both gain type pedals

TomCat

Alan Ratcliffe wrote Aside from the various types of distortion pedals, I'd say you need at least a compressor and a phaser.

+1 Alan

Compressor would be good and is also a gain type pedal as well.

matta

Hi Guys,

Thanks for your input, yes, it is a bit of a quandary...

Tom it is as you shared, staying small means higher prices, pretty much no chance of retail stores selling the pedals as I'd like to make them affordable and most stores want at least 40-60% mark-up, making the retail pricing VERY high, at least on the option of me hand building them here in SA.

The other benefit of building them here, one by one, it the effects are truly unique, going OEM to China means that odds are that your pedal is a clone of a clone, and they WILL sell to the highest bidder, so I could start a line, and someone with more money comes along and then takes the SAME design, and sells it cheaper, at that point it is no longer 'boutique', whereas Fuzzsilla right now is very unique, no other pedal like it, it has a sound that is special, at least to my ears and the guys who have kicked around the prototype, and nobody else has a clone of it.

The next thing is VOLUME, I'd have to order a min. of 150+ pedals on my first order from China, that is ALOT of pedals. With Fuzzsilla I'm getting quotes on doing 20 at a time, which is more doable, and all of that done here, high quality imported Hammond 1590B styles cases, machine milled, powdercoated, screened etc and 100% hand assembled by me with the best parts (not to knock the Chinese company, they would use the same/similar parts/quality).

I pooled a couple guys on the waiting list for Fuzzsilla and they all felt they would rather pay R200-R300 more for a handmade, unique pedal by me than go the Chinese route, it also helps for the potential to export as the pedal companies abroad want something different/unique, hand-built in South Africa has a better ring that China to their ears.

I think for now I'm going to push on through with Fuzzsilla and then onto a Compressor, prob. a Ross/Orange Squeezer derivative (Yes Tom, I promise, it is on the cards!!!) and just continue to build the business pedal by pedal.

Thanks again for all the input, this is a great place to brainstorm ideas, however crazy they may or may not be ?

Cheers

Matt

RobK

If you start doing bulk production runs, the pedal stops being unique, doesn't it? Also there is always a posibility, as you mentioned, of someone copying it and selling it cheaper. Though I don't know much about pedals/effects, if I was buying one, I'd rather have something handmade for me and pay a bit more for it.

I'd say that if your price compares favourably to similar mass produced products, then I'd say keep it local, handmade and start by building to order. It may start slowly, but word might spread and you may end up with a few month's back orders - just like the guy who does the Tim and Timmy pedals. ?

MIKA-the-better-one

A nice solid compressor would be great, delay (analogue) and an octave down would be cool, so many companies are making octave down effects whch seem to be ring modulator styled, there are not enough simple, octave down fuzz, almost moog like sounds. I would buy that in a second

DonovanB

are you gonna make any multis? Mika wants one ?

TomCat

@ Donovan....... :roflmao:........You Cruzin'......

CDee

X-rated Bob wrote I like modulation effects - in principle. I find many of the modern implementations lacking. In particular chorus pedals - they sound thin these days, and I think they add a lot of compression.

+1 on that Bob, the chorus pedals that I've tested the last few months are not very good. I'm looking for something full bodied and lush. I want a tight 200 person chorus not just a chorus of 20 people repeated 10 times (If you get what I'm saying) ?

RobK

DonovanB wrote are you gonna make any multis? Mika wants one ?

That should be easy enough - make a few pedals and house them all in one enclosure

[deleted]

I'd say an overdrive/clean boost and a compressor are your top sellers. So it would make sense to have those in the line up...

And a modded fuzzilla with an octave up/down switch ?

MIKA-the-better-one

If you are gonna do a multi please make it a high quality one like a zoom 505!!!

Guy-Onraet

Fuzzsila, an OD and the compressor you speck'd initially would do the best i imagine.
I'd love a phaser and a simple analog delay aswell.
it would be rad having a pedalboard with nothing but Ashton Audio ?

also, did you ever get a chance to look over those Xotic pedals a told you about. if not, here's the link http://www.xotic.us/effects/tremTrio/
if i could only have one, i'd take the BB.

kayDUB

Hi Matt

I've been thinking about this lately... not sure why exactly, but it was just on my mind.

The way I see it, you should look at your target market and how the options affect your target market.
Keeping the pedals more expensive, but handmade on order will attract your more "seasoned" or experienced/serious guitarists.

If you choose to keep the price point down (with a quality dip), chances are this afore-mentioned market will move towards other more boutique-like manufacturers. (IMO)
Also, the lower price point (which could result in stores carrying your stock) will put it more in the reach of your everyday/amateur/not-to-serious-about-it-hobbyist-guitarist. But in this market you'll be fighting with the likes of Boss and other well known manufacturers which all their friends are using... so why would they buy your relatively unknown (for now at least ? ) pedal?

So my vote is keep it boutique, baby! I think you'll have a better opportunity to build a solid brand in that market.

</unsolicited opinion>

matta

Hey Guy,

Yeah, I checked out the Xotic stuff, looks pretty neat! I found the schematic for the BB which was reverse engineered/degooped, it is essentially a TS808 clone with an extra opamp used for the split active filter network and some extra clipping stages with an extra opamp, but it is a Tube Screamer clone at it's core... along with a zillion other overdrive pedals...

kayDUB wrote Hi Matt

I've been thinking about this lately... not sure why exactly, but it was just on my mind.

The way I see it, you should look at your target market and how the options affect your target market.
Keeping the pedals more expensive, but handmade on order will attract your more "seasoned" or experienced/serious guitarists.

If you choose to keep the price point down (with a quality dip), chances are this afore-mentioned market will move towards other more boutique-like manufacturers. (IMO)
Also, the lower price point (which could result in stores carrying your stock) will put it more in the reach of your everyday/amateur/not-to-serious-about-it-hobbyist-guitarist. But in this market you'll be fighting with the likes of Boss and other well known manufacturers which all their friends are using... so why would they buy your relatively unknown (for now at least ? ) pedal?

So my vote is keep it boutique, baby! I think you'll have a better opportunity to build a solid brand in that market.

</unsolicited opinion>

Thanks Kevin,

This has been the consensus of most of the guys who have had me service/mod/build gear for them... Fuzzsilla is a special, custom creation, as with some of the other ideas I have floating around in my head (although as with 90% of boutique pedals are inspired by the 'classics'). Most are happy to spend a few more $$$ for something unique and I feel if I was to ever export I'd need something that stands out.

It is frustrating in that doing it this way is alot harder, with less reward, as least financially, but I love it and am going to keep pushing forward... it looks like Fuzzsilla is only going to be ready now in late Jan as the milling factories have now closed shop and the final proto wasn't ready in time, GRRRR... can't wait to just birth this project already!!!

Thanks again for your thoughts/insight into things, it really does help and is most encouraging.

Cheers

Matt

singemonkey

Don't do it ?

There must be so few people in SA in the market for a boutique type fuzz pedal. Those people will pay whatever they have to pay. So having them manufactured cheaper isn't going to be an issue. Rather charge them what you have to charge them, knowing that you're actually going to make a profit at the end of the day - rather than being out of pocket at the end of the day.

And why not have an online store? Once you include the retail markup, there's no way you can compete with boss for the mass market in pedals. But if you had a line of basic pedals - modded TS808, for e.g. ("The Green Mamba" or "The Boomslang" you could call it ? ) - and you sold them directly from a website (no duties, minimal shipping costs), you might actually undercut the South African retail prices of the major manufacturers?

It would just take a few kids going, "Ja bru, it's like a South African Tubescreamer. It's cheaper than the Ibanez one. And you get it three days after you order it."

Just my 10c.

AlanRatcliffe

I've also been thinking about this a lot and tend to agree with kayDUB and Singemonkey.

We lack a boutique manufacturer locally, so those with an interest in such things buy imported pedals from the shops or import them themselves. Prices for such things are relatively steep which - I suspect - gives you the financial wiggle room to keep the production local and keep complete control over the quality. Selling your pedals direct also makes it much more viable to retail them at a competitive price locally.

Export would be nice, but then prices do get steeper (or production costs must come down). Anyway no manufacturer of this kind of thing gets anywhere without a solid user base in his home market to keep him going while he gradually penetrates the international markets.