anyone know these pickups for classical guitar ..Schatten HFN-C from canada

Keira-WitherKay

yeah the catch phrase that got me was ..."Studio Microphone Quality Sound "

i love the mic'd sound on the nylon classical/flamenco's so is this a technology leap or just advertising hype....... the pickup's i have tried on my nylons do not cut it.... and the condenser mic blows em all out the water .... but i do need a backup system for if i play some festivals this summer where a mic will be a prob re feedback at the higher levels..for all my intimate gigs ..which is most of em or theatres the mic will be fine.... but i have decided to have some backup plan... on this last saturday i did a gig with the kathy raven band ( blues band ) who has the fabulous graham sacks on guitar (he is on this forum) and the setup was so that i played and set up in line with the speakers ... the mic worked but it seemed like we needed to push it 10% more and cos of the speaker placement it would feed .... so yeah me thinks a backup plan is whats called for...

then i was researching pickups and yes i looked at the LR baggs which have still to totally impress me even tho they about the best of the bunch...... then i found this when googling for pickup systems...... below is the write up on the website....

so has anyone read anything about this or heard a classical that sounds authentically natural and knows what pick ups were used ..jonathan crosley the awesome jazz guitarist has an LR baggs in his nylon but i have not heard it yet... but the last LR baggs i heard sounded as unnatural as most other nylon transducers...

so any advice???? oh i need the top to be active for the percussion i do on it ....

Schatten HFN-C Series Pickups for Nylon String Classical and Flamenco Guitars

Studio Microphone Quality Sound

"The sound of this new guitar pickup is as close to that of a good quality mic as you've ever heard from a guitar pickup......"

The HFN-C models give you a sound that is much more realistic and acoustic than anything that you have ever experienced before. More realism in attack, more realism in overall response, these pickups actually allow your instrument to sound just as good plugged in as it does unplugged.The only thing missing from the HFN-C in a classical is the 'quack' that everyone has come to expect and accept in classical acoustic pickups.

The HFN-C series for nylon string classicals and flamenco guitars is available in two models: The HFN-C passive which does not come with a preamp, and the HFN-C Artist which is an active pickup and has an endpin jack preamp. We offer the passive model of the pickup for use in instruments that already have a preamp onboard or for those customers that wish to use an outboard preamp.

The HFN-C Artist now comes with our latest generation of Artist II endpin jack preamp featuring multiple power capability. This means that the preamp can be run from an onboard 9 volt battery, or from Phantom Power (up to 48 volts dc), or from an outboard battery box.

So, the choice is yours: "Do I put a battery in there.....or don't I?"

HFN Artist Pickup - with Artist II Preamp features

Preamp may run from 9 volt battery onboard
Preamp may run from Phantom Power (up to 48 volts) from PA, mixer, or amp
Preamp may run from an 18 volt Remote Battery Box
Available thumbwheel volume controls
2 Channels with trim pots on circuit board for setting maximum gain per channel

The HFN-C series of pickups utilizes an elegant combination of materials: rosewood for its main structure and arching with a light weight brass shell for its noise shielded piezo unit. Total weight of the pickup is a very light 0.2 ounces (7 grams). It will not affect the acoustic sound of the instrument when not in use.

The HFN C pickup unit securely sticks in place on the bridge plate of your classical guitar with the supplied 3M VHB self adhesive foam tape. This mounting is very quick and very secure. The pickup may be removed easily however, at any time should you want to move it to a different instrument.

The HFN-C piezo sensing unit fits inside the instrument and spans the center brace or reinforcement strip. Due its' design, this series of pickups produces sound much closer to that of a good microphone than any under the saddle pickup or bridge replacement pickup that you've ever heard.

Installation is quick and simple and takes about 15 minutes. All HFN-C's come fully wired, complete and ready to install. The Artist models also include a self adhesive velcro mount cordura nylon battery bag. Neat and tidy.

Bob-Dubery

This looks like a similar concept to the Baggs I-Beam. It's not an under-saddle pickup, and it attaches to the bridge plate. It would be interesting to see how either of these pickups works with the percussive stuff that you do.

IMO the only way to get a faithful acoustic sound is to combine 2 different sources (say under-saddle and internal mic) and blend the two. Baggs do offer an advantage here with systems like I-Mix and Dual Source which include an internal pre-amp matched to the two different sources - everything is matched and balanced.

However I recall that you already have a guitar with a pickup and a mike and ran two leads from that into your mixer, so you may have options then to blend devices from different manufacturers.

I'd so more reading and find out what the guys who do the percussive stuff are using. Some pickups might be too sensitive to the percussion or even come loose.

Keira-WitherKay

morning bob yes this Schatten pick up system is also a dual one a second transducer is placed on the back of the guitar on a centre brace which is like a mic....

and yeah bob i been reading a LOT you know me i have google and not afraid to use it heheheh but yes ...

in answer to your question what other people who do this over the top percussion style use (i only say over the top cos it's way more than the trad flamenco perc...) the answer is mostly condenser microphones......thats why i swopped to a condenser microphone.....

i'm even in correspondence with a quite a few jazz musicians in NY who i met on another site who also use purely condensers and even with bands.... so it is a trend at moment for those of us wanting a natural sound....

Bob a great example is remember that gig at TJ's where is it Sue brought her Mark Maingard 3/4 classical and performed.....when she played (plugged at the show) it sounded no better than a good yamaha CGX but i got to play it for about 20 min later unplugged and it took me the rest of the night to lift my jaw off the floor i was so impressed by the tone.... and thats an LR baggs in there and it never sounded that great plugged in tho.... so yeah thats my dialema.... and yes my yamaha CGX with the 2 pickups (B band undersaddle and a internal condenser) and separate lines out sounds horrid in comparison to the vintage yamaha with a condenser...i actually tested it again about a week ago....

just this pick up system claims to have a studio microphone sound and the selling point is it does not have that typical nylon pick up sound....

but i want to get hold of Jonathan Crosley and check out his LR baggs system also in a mark maingard classical nylon
the great thing about LR baggs least there is local product available to test ....

but like i say if most of the better nylon players use microphones live there must be little out there than meets the standards of a pure natural sound.... and yeah thats the issue .... i now been spoilt by 3 months of using microphones i can't go back to even the guitar i recorded my cd on.... which had internal pickups and i was happy with it at the time...or rather ignorant to the tonal possibility available to me since at that time i had always avoided mics.......

so yeah thats it very frustrating ...... and even googling has minimal options....

Bob-Dubery

Keira WitherKay wrote: Bob a great example is remember that gig at TJ's where is it Sue brought her Mark Maingard 3/4 classical and performed.....when she played (plugged at the show) it sounded no better than a good yamaha CGX but i got to play it for about 20 min later unplugged and it took me the rest of the night to lift my jaw off the floor i was so impressed by the tone.... and thats an LR baggs in there and it never sounded that great plugged in tho.... so yeah thats my dialema....

You've commented in the past about how good my Morgan sounds plugged in. You also made favourable comments about the Taylor that Andrew Bryson bought from me. Both have Baggs systems in them.

I don't think that under-the-saddle systems EVER sound the same as a guitar. In some cases they sound better! You can put a good pickup into a crap acoustic guitar and it will sound better plugged in than unplugged. Assuming somebody doesn't do something silly with the dials. I don't want to be unkind to the people at TJs who are a nice bunch and do what they do for love and not for money, but there are problems with the sound there and they're increasing.

Personally I don't think under-the-saddle systems really sound like a guitar naturally sounds. Some are better than others, but they never sound real. All the on-board amplification tools for acoustic guitars have problems - either a less than natural sound or a tendency to feedback. This is why I think that a system that combines two different sound sources is the way to go.

I also think that installation is a big factor in the success of these systems. It does have to be properly done. For the sort of product that has caught your eye here placement is very significant. For any of these solutions good installation is essential and placement does make a big difference. So it might be an idea to ask who installed the system not just what the system is.

Keira-WitherKay

from X-rated Bob
You've commented in the past about how good my Morgan sounds plugged in. You also made favourable comments about the Taylor that Andrew Bryson bought from me. Both have Baggs systems in them.

yes Bob and thats cos they steel string guitars........... it's a known fact that a steel string can be
more naturally reproduced by pick up systems.........

nylons have nuances that they have not yet managed to capture... maybe it's the lower string tension or the materials that the strings are made from....

but i can find many steel strings and your Morgan is one of them that sound so rich and full of tone plugged in ....and yeah i think LR baggs is prob about the best pickups available to us working musicians.....

so it's the fact of it being a nylon string..... and ask yourself the question... when have you been to a classical concert and seen a guitarist plugged in or even any flamenco player like paco or vincento amigo plugged in , never....... they all use mic's if they need it...

and i truly believe if a pickup existed that was truly capturing the nylon nuances they would be used by top artists.... cos even they will have feedback issues ect ect with condensers on a stage .....

and on the other side of the coin the top steel string players all plug in ....from martin taylor to doyle dykes to antoine dafour to every steel string player i see on MTV but not the top end nylon players you still see em on live shows mic'd up...... watch the recent paco di lucia show .. he has a full band on stage ...surely giving mic ing probs but he still mic's it up.....

so thats the point think nylon is a different beast and technology has not quite cracked it as well as they have steel string acoustics yet ...and i say YET i'm sure they will sometime..... thats why i watch the latest developments... and asking about this Schatten pick up system...cos i'm hoping that technology will catch up and allow us nylon players the tone we deserve