Bob-Dubery
The following is actually copied from another debate on another on-line resource, but it may be of interest here. The person asking the questions is a builder of acoustic guitars.
"What does a guitarist want from his guitar? How is it possible that two players can try a guitar...one likes it and the other not? Are there any specific rules? How does one describe good or bad sound in words that someone else will immediately understand?"
What say you?
I find these kinds of exchanges of ideas quite useful because they help to clarify my own thinking.
Keira-WitherKay
Bob my answers easy.........
when i pick up any guitar .... i have only two criteria....maybe 3 if you include i would only look at a nylon string instrument for personal use that is...
1.tone and
2. feel
and i don't care whats on the headstock if it was built in korea or by some famous luthier....... the woods used won't matter either to me if the tone is what i seek.........
and both my criteria are highly personal to what i hear as good tone (for me it must be a nylon sting and have a warm tone not a sharp one.... and the feel must be traditional not hybrid/crossover feel with narrow flat necks ... i like the fat bulky trad classical neck feel...
so thats why i might not like a guitar someone else loves .........and will ignore some top end instruments that to me just don't cut it even tho they are luthier built with exotic wood.....
but believe me at guitar shows i still love the pretty guitars with the rare woods... but sometimes i find when i pick em up and play them they don't suit me or my criteria at all...
and yes viva la difference..... i mean don't most guitarists seek their own sound even if it's different in subtle ways ...... i must admit i have reservations when people buy instruments driven almost exclusively by brand name ....but hey if thats their thing then thats their thing............
Bob-Dubery
I think there are non-tone issues that are important as well. Does the thing stay in tune? Is the neck stable? What's the intonation like? OK... these can be addressed via a setup as well, but I have been surprised on occasion by non-cheap guitars with a reputable name on the headstock that have not been properly set up in the factory. I'm not talking Cort or Ibanez here, for the money that you're paying you're entitled to expect that a bit of attention was given to the nut, the bridge, the frets. You don't always get that.
Is it comfortable to play? This again might be related to setup, but it could also be things that are designed into the guitar. I recall one guitar that I played that was just a fight because the headstock was too heavy and kept on heading for the floor. Andrew Bryson who bought the Taylor from me remarked to that he can play it for a long time with no discomfort whereas his previous acoustic was much more physically difficult and more tiring to play.
I'm not sure there's a magic tone that does it all, though good guitars tend to be surprisingly versatile.
Keira-WitherKay
X-rated Bob wrote:
I'm not sure there's a magic tone that does it all, though good guitars tend to be surprisingly versatile.
the tone Bob does not need to be versatile .... but only has to suit my needs hehehhehehe all the tonal shifts i use when playing different styles i can do with my technique and fingers ... but the guitar needs to have one basic good tone that i like to start with............
and remember for a guitar to have a good tone it will need the construction to be good and relatively acceptable wood... so i'm not discounting that ...just i would not buy a guitar based on the exotic woods or the pedigree... but the tone....
and yeah Bob tuning and action can be sorted by setup and changing machineheads or nuts ect ....... all minor if the guitar offers great tone....... that 40 yr old old yamaha pawn shop find i use live now i have changed the machineheads cos the old ones would slip.... but the tone on that acoustic is great and once i changed them it is perfectly stable.......
so yeah Bob i will maybe banter with you and say tone is what matters (oh and i did say feel...) everything else can be fixed.... but i'm yet to hear a guitar that sounds twangy or not my ideal idea of tone ..sound better after any adjustment ... easier to play definitely but never a tonal improvement on acoustic that is.... (we not talking pickups)
singemonkey
I would say tone comes first. My girlfriend's got this f-hole archtop acoustic made in India. Name of Giveson ?
Now this is a very cheap, poorly made guitar with insanely high action. But it sounds incredible. Just amazing. For that reason, I will try to get it set up, replace the 1:5 ratio (or there abouts) tuners, and generally do a lot to get a fantastic sounding archtop acoustic. I wouldn't have bought it probably, with that setup, but now that it's available and I know what it sounds like, I'll put in the cash to get it to play as well as it can.
PeteM
This is what I look for in this order:
1. Quality of build
2. Intonation
3. Its action and its potential for a setup if required
4. Comfort - how it sits in hand, neck thickness etc
5. If the above don't meet my standards then its no point going any further (put it back on the shelf)
6. The timbre - what suits my ear (no point in passing comment since we all have subjective views)
7. Variation in timbre when right hand plays from 12 fret to bridge
8. What it sounds like when played softly and when hammered
9. If it has a pickup - the quality of amplified sound
10. Look at who made it, although this doesn't matter at all.
Squonk
Interesting topic
I have found in Acoustic guitars that some are more suited to picking and some more suited to strumming.
I used to have a top of the range Washburn that had such a brilliant action, easy to play, but didn't project the tone that I wanted for playing lead or picking. I then bought my Takamine which sounds so good when playing lead and picking, but not as sweet as the Washburn for strumming.
Between the two guitars, the Washburn was the most pleasant to play. But I prefered the Takamine.
Is this for real or am I imagining it?
guitarboy2828
Ya know, tone has to be first, or playability.. Both are so important.. But I will not buy a cheaply made guitar FOR THIS REASON!!!!
I had an old nylon string, my uncle gave it to me, sounded AMAZING.. tone was unbelievable.. Played awesome too.. However, it was an older guitar, and obviously not handcrafted and so as the wood aged, it started "bending", and the wood holding it together slowly started separating from the guitar.. Eventually, it started making funny sounds and I couldn't play it..
A good guitar should last forever! ?
Jack-Flash-Jr
All of the above and... I would add that a bevelled edge like Marc Maingard does adds to playing comfort...!
Keira-WitherKay
Jack Flash Jr wrote:
All of the above and... I would add that a bevelled edge like Marc Maingard does adds to playing comfort...!
oooooooohhhhhhh do you own a mark maingard??? i looooooooooooove the guitars of his i have tried ....... hehehehe nice tone
most recently i tried a 3/4 classical he made for a woman who performs at TJ's and for a small body it has so much warmth and again the word "tone" that the sound actually surprised me... acoustically... she performed using the pickup.... but the acoustic sound was even better than the amplified one... yeah can say i 'love his work" well what i've seen of it..which is a total of 4 guitars so far heheheh but 4/4 is not a bad average ...
Jack-Flash-Jr
Keira WitherKay wrote:
Jack Flash Jr wrote:
All of the above and... I would add that a bevelled edge like Marc Maingard does adds to playing comfort...!
oooooooohhhhhhh do you own a mark maingard??? i looooooooooooove the guitars of his i have tried ....... hehehehe nice tone
most recently i tried a 3/4 classical he made for a woman who performs at TJ's and for a small body it has so much warmth and again the word "tone" that the sound actually surprised me... acoustically... she performed using the pickup.... but the acoustic sound was even better than the amplified one... yeah can say i 'love his work" well what i've seen of it..which is a total of 4 guitars so far heheheh but 4/4 is not a bad average ...
Alas no... It's on my list, it's on my list! The workshop is about 10min drive away but I'm too scared to visit lest I pawn everything I own...
Keira-WitherKay
ahh jack flash you have a list ..... me too... hehehh
and yeah when the time comes that i can afford that 'dream " guitar yeah a visit to mark maingard will be in order or though i would prefer to buy an old one of his than have him make a new one... i like old.......
it should be dated like me........
yeah my on wishlist if i have the bottomless (well relatively so) budget would definitely be to travel the guitar festivals world wide and seek out the guitar that i would want... a holiday ,adventure and realising a dream all in one...... i'd truly love to own a classical guitar with 50 years of history on it at least ... if not more..... but i doubt my budget will ever be THAT bottomless.... ehhehehe
Bob-Dubery
Keira WitherKay wrote:
ahh jack flash you have a list ..... me too... hehehh
and yeah when the time comes that i can afford that 'dream " guitar yeah a visit to mark maingard will be in order or though i would prefer to buy an old one of his than have him make a new one... i like old.......
it should be dated like me........
You should have been at TJs last night. John and Janet van Nierop did an excellent set of South American pieces on their classical guitars. John was playing a Harald Petersen classical that may even be older than you - but not by much ?. Janet was playing a Ramirez - age unknown.
Keira-WitherKay
yeah Bob i wanted to go to TJ's last night ... and john and janet drop in often at my gigs ... and we share a very similar interest in music ...and nylon guitar so when i saw they on the bill i wanted to make it but i had prior commitments last night.......
heheheh yeah Bob i did post that pic and astronomical price of the ramirez that was exactly my age made in '64 and yeah it would be awesome to own one that old.. heheheh but it would have to sound good too..... i'm not THAT sentimental
[deleted]
Quality of woods, A great luthier (design), Beauty, Attention to detail...
In other words... A Larrivee ?
Jokes aside...
It's difficult. There are so many different ways to make/improve a great acoustic, I think as long as the DNA of a guitar is there, all the other things would naturally fall into place...
Another point...
It all depends on the player at the end of the day. That connection you need to make with an instrument...
There is one specific Collings at Hughs' that I cant keep my hands of when I go there. It's NO better or worse than the others... but why do I have such an inclination to that one.. It's plain, simple, nothing fancy, but my ears hear something in it... Which I can't explain ?
Bob-Dubery
Brentcgp wrote:
Quality of woods, A great luthier (design), Beauty, Attention to detail...
In other words... A Larrivee Morgan ?
Fixed your typo for you
Brentcgp wrote:
There is one specific Collings at Hughs' that I cant keep my hands of when I go there. It's NO better or worse than the others... but why do I have such an inclination to that one.. It's plain, simple, nothing fancy, but my ears hear something in it... Which I can't explain ?
It must be different in some way. Even the best, most exacting makers do not churn out identical guitars. There will be subtle differences in the tops, the back and sides, the bracing - not better or worse, just different.
[deleted]
X-rated Bob wrote:
Brentcgp wrote:
Quality of woods, A great luthier (design), Beauty, Attention to detail...
In other words... A Larrivee Morgan ?
Fixed your typo for you
Brentcgp wrote:
There is one specific Collings at Hughs' that I cant keep my hands of when I go there. It's NO better or worse than the others... but why do I have such an inclination to that one.. It's plain, simple, nothing fancy, but my ears hear something in it... Which I can't explain ?
It must be different in some way. Even the best, most exacting makers do not churn out identical guitars. There will be subtle differences in the tops, the back and sides, the bracing - not better or worse, just different.
HAHA Yeah, Morgan is nice... But its Larrivee DNA, He needed to find inspiration from somewhere!!
Yes different, but I really couldn't explain why THAT guitar was so special to me...
Very few guitars have done that to me, and thank goodness I actually own one that feels part of my soul ?
[deleted]
I think playability and longevity are the two most important factors to me. Obviously those parameters are also dependant on how much work you put into the guitar, like how much time you spend on learning to play it or fixing it up.
I think varition in timbre is very important. It is more important to me than the general sound of the guitar (ie. metalic and bright or warm and woody).
Gearhead
guitarboy2828 wrote:
However, it was an older guitar, and obviously not handcrafted and so as the wood aged, it started "bending", and the wood holding it together slowly started separating from the guitar.. Eventually, it started making funny sounds and I couldn't play it..
This would have nothing to do with hand crafted or not, older guitar or new, but with humidity. Sounds very much like you ruined your own guitar by not humidifying it enough.
Bob-Dubery
guitarboy2828 wrote:
Ya know, tone has to be first, or playability.. Both are so important.. But I will not buy a cheaply made guitar FOR THIS REASON!!!!
I had an old nylon string, my uncle gave it to me, sounded AMAZING.. tone was unbelievable.. Played awesome too.. However, it was an older guitar, and obviously not handcrafted and so as the wood aged, it started "bending", and the wood holding it together slowly started separating from the guitar.. Eventually, it started making funny sounds and I couldn't play it..
A good guitar should last forever! ?
Good acoustic guitars are made from solid wood. When I say "solid" I mean "not laminated". As such they are always going to be at the mercy of the elements to a degree. Most really good acoustics - steel or nylon string - still have glued in necks and are held together with old-fashioned glues. They're living things - which is why they can sound better and better as the years go by, but is also why they may need a neck reset after a few decades and will certainly need some care.
In particular extremes of humidity are not good (laminated guitars handle low or high humidity a lot better) and heat is not a good thing - so don't leave them in the boot of a car on a hot day etc.
Good acoustic guitars are built so that they can be taken apart relatively easily - certainly as regards removing the neck.
