Guitar vs Bass

DonovanB

There is a real lack of bass players world wide. If you find a good bass player, chances are he/she plays for more than one band and probably does session work as well.
It has often caused me to think of buying a decent bass rig and taking it on professionally, but I can't get away from a guitar. You can't bend a note with feeling on a bass (you have to bend it with the rest of your body) and most bands don't want creative bass. Maybe in certain funk and jazz circles it would be interesting, but to me, playing a walking bass line or getting a skeef look when you ask the drummer to change his kick pattern to something more interesting to get a better groove, not in those words, is a little annoying.

I happened here this morning http://www.amandaruzza.com/ and her biography says she started at 12 and was gigging by age 13.... Thats not by any means saying bass is that easy that a 12 year old girl can do it in a year :? but is there such a shortage of bass players that we have to find pubescent musicians or do we view bass as uncool and want to be Jimi Hendrix all the time?

From my experience playing bass, you do have to put up with a lot of snoot from guitarists who always think they can handle the instrument better than you.

Have you hugged your bass player today?

Explorerlover

DonovanB wrote:

From my experience playing bass, you do have to put up with a lot of snoot from guitarists who always think they can handle the instrument better than you.

That's just the thing, all the good bass players are taken and then you get the guy who'll play bass in your band because he thinks it's a easy way to look cool and be in a band. I've had endless issues with my previous bassist and I wanted him to show some initiative and come up with cool stuff, but after a while I realised that it's not going to happen and that's when that guitarist mentality comes in of "give me that thing, I'll show you how"

Bob-Dubery

DonovanB wrote: There is a real lack of bass players world wide. If you find a good bass player, chances are he/she plays for more than one band and probably does session work as well.

'Twas ever thus. I remember some advice I got when I was at school (this was in the period now known as "the middle ages" because it fell in between the advent of bushman art and the rinderpest). I had a good friend who was a very good keyboard player and drummer (he also was not too shabby on the trumpet). He was gigging a lot already at that age. I got talking to him about what instrument one should learn. He said "if you want to get lots of work, then take up bass guitar."

PeteM

The thing about bass is that it is percieved to be a simple instrument to play - one or two notes per bar with the occasional fill. But to play bass properly requires a special talent and dedicated study. IMO, a band's sound and 'tightness' is totally dependant upon the bassplayer. In most cases, the bassplayer is playing one note at time but this belies the fact that musically, the bassplayer has to have a solid understanding of harmony.
I'm essentially a guitarist, but I did play bass for a while in a jazz band, and I learnt two important lessons:
1. just because you are guitarist doesn't mean you can play bass - I always wanted to make everything too busy.
2. You're supporting the front line and you have to listen, listen, listen!!!

guitarboy2828

It's true.. There are never bassists..

So that being said, sell all your guitars and play bass... But it is also try, only so much expression and emotion you can put into bass... Just feels like playing bass is boring.. Like how much can one actually learn ya know?

Bob-Dubery

guitarboy2828 wrote: But it is also try, only so much expression and emotion you can put into bass... Just feels like playing bass is boring.. Like how much can one actually learn ya know?

Ever watched a really good bass player? A top bass guitarists has all the chops and all the musical knowledge of a top exponent of any other instrument. A couple of years ago I got to stand very close to the stage at a gig in which Danny Thompson was playing bass. What a privilege to watch a musician of that caliber at such close quarters. And don't tell me there is no way for a bassist to express themselves through their instrument.

[deleted]

I have a (probably somewhat facile) belief that great bassists are born to play the bass; they are not converted (or failed ? ) guitarists. There is just something in the approach to music of a true-blue bass player that cannot be easily ingrained or transferred from another instrument - even the guitar. These people are rare indeed, and it is a joy to play with them.

Bob-Dubery

Stratisfear wrote: I have a (probably somewhat facile) belief that great bassists are born to play the bass; they are not converted (or failed ? ) guitarists. There is just something in the approach to music of a true-blue bass player that cannot be easily ingrained or transferred from another instrument - even the guitar. These people are rare indeed, and it is a joy to play with them.

Sure. But I'd say the same about guitar or almost any other instrument. There are lots of people who DO play it, but only a small number were born to play.

An interesting "sub species" or "sub genre" would be guitarists who are "born" to play rhythm guitar. Playing rhythm is an underestimated craft.

[deleted]

DonovanB wrote: do we view bass as uncool and want to be Jimi Hendrix all the time?

I guess I was just reiterating Pete's good response to this sentiment - that, in fact, the two are not really comparable or part of the same spectrum, despite such glaring similarities between the instruments. That a good bass player has no pretensions to Hendrixness... But yes, I agree with you that those born for niches are special, no matter what they're playing.

AlanRatcliffe

guitarboy2828 wrote: Just feels like playing bass is boring.. Like how much can one actually learn ya know?

I know more than a few bassists that can play circles around 99.9% of guitarists and they tend to have a better knowledge of how music works. Bassists learn tasty playing over flashy long before guitarists and they understand that tasty will win over flash every single time. The best bassists always anchor the music down - even when they are being flashy at the same time.

Playing rhythm is an underestimated craft.

Amen Bob. I'd much rather lock into what the rhythm section are doing than noodle over the top of it. The Malcolm Young approach rather than the Angus. Working guitarists play rhythm 95% of the time, but most work on lead for 95% of their practice time. They'll practice speed over working on melody and harmony parts too - which are the other hallmarks of a great player. In the oft-cited example of Hendrix as the archetypical "lead" guitarist, most seem forget that it's his rhythm that made some of his best tracks like Little Wing what they are - not the leads.

[deleted]

Alan Ratcliffe wrote: they tend to have a better knowledge of how music works.

That is absolutely true, in my experience. They'll stand there silently chiding everyone else in their heads, part of a kind of secret gang that really knows what's going on.

Jack-Flash-Jr

Alan Ratcliffe wrote:
guitarboy2828 wrote: Just feels like playing bass is boring.. Like how much can one actually learn ya know?
I know more than a few bassists that can play circles around 99.9% of guitarists and they tend to have a better knowledge of how music works. Bassists learn tasty playing over flashy long before guitarists and they understand that tasty will win over flash every single time. The best bassists always anchor the music down - even when they are being flashy at the same time.

Playing rhythm is an underestimated craft.
Amen Bob. I'd much rather lock into what the rhythm section are doing than noodle over the top of it. The Malcolm Young approach rather than the Angus. Working guitarists play rhythm 95% of the time, but most work on lead for 95% of their practice time. They'll practice speed over working on melody and harmony parts too - which are the other hallmarks of a great player. In the oft-cited example of Hendrix as the archetypical "lead" guitarist, most seem forget that it's his rhythm that made some of his best tracks like Little Wing what they are - not the leads.

My dream job is being Malcolm, not Angus, Young... so concur with the above. A couple of notes: Noel Redding was a converted guitarist and ended being pretty damn good at bass. And who says you can't be show off on bass and be good? See Suicidal Tendencies or any Rob Trujillo stuff... not to mention Les Claypool.
As an aside, according to lore the bass player gets the most girls (or maybe that's just Bill Wyman misremembering)

nicovlogg

At the beginnning of this year I started jamming with a new funk band, and the bassist is insane. He can't play anything else, I mean, he doesn't even know Kumba Ya on acoustic guitar! ?

But let me say that his funky basslines have added more to the band than any guitar could. Never appreciated bass like that before. Going back to playing with other bassists, just so boring!

Bob-Dubery

Jack Flash Jr wrote: My dream job is being Malcolm, not Angus, Young... so concur with the above. A couple of notes: Noel Redding was a converted guitarist and ended being pretty damn good at bass.

I'm not so sure about that. He played bass in a pretty damn good band, but Hendrix and Mitch Miller were the guys who really made The Experience.

A better bet as guitarist made into bass player is Paul McCartney. A lot of "proper" bass players don't rate him because, they say, he sounds like a guitarist playing bass. Stephen Stills laid down some nice bass parts - though sometimes it sounded like Stills on guitar slowed down to half speed.

And who says you can't be show off on bass and be good? See Suicidal Tendencies or any Rob Trujillo stuff... not to mention Les Claypool.

Jaco Pastorius anybody? It seems to me that good bass players, as Alan has pointed out, understand that there is more than flash involved. I think a lot of them have the chops to solo but don't.

There's a fascinating clip on YouTube about Steely Dan and the cutting of the track "Peg" on the album Aja. They spend a bit of time talking about the bass part - played by Chuck Rainey and turn a lot of the other components of the recording down to emphasise the part they are talking about. Because so much is taken out of the mix you get a chance to really appreciate the marvellous groove he laid down and you can better hear the harmonic aspect of what he is doing. Also he's making a contribution to the rhythm because - contrary to instructions from The Dan - he did some slapping (he thought it would work with the track so he had a screen put in between him and the control room window so that Becker and Fagan couldn't see what he was up to). The demonstration goes on to show how beautifully Rainey integrated his part with the drum part. He had to have a lot of chops, good music theory skills and marvellous instincts to get all that done.

Respect!

I think this should be it...

singemonkey

Very cool topic.

Noel Redding was the example to me of what bass playing's all about, by negative example. His busy stuff when contrasted with Billy Cox on the Band of Gypsies record? Wow man. Billy Cox just keeps pumping out the simplest stuff. But the groove was so awesomely strong in a way the Redding's never was.

I played bass in my first gigs ever - and picked up the instrument for the first time 3 days before. What I learned in that brief stint was that it's you and the drummer against the world man. You groove with your drummer. You and he/she are the roots out of which all the fancy flowery stuff can grow. And I enjoyed sometimes playing a single note over and over again (sometimes even an open string) for bar after bar. You just deepen the groove instead of trying to use your guitar chops to do something 'interesting.' I'm just remembering how fun that was.

One kind of bassist that never gets overlooked is the rockabilly, upright bassist. That slap-back bup-a-de-bup-a-de will hold peoples' attention on its own. Also they get to spin it, ride it and generally look like they own the stage. You've got to have a whole lot of guitar to keep the eyes on you next to that, I reckon.

aubs1

X-rated Bob wrote:
........ but Hendrix and Mitch Miller were the guys who really made The Experience.

Mitch Mitchell, Bob.... ? But anyway Hendrix did the bass parts on quite a few tracks himself, which really pissed Noel off,.....

Noel played guitar on "Little miss Strange", and Jimi played bass. This was AFAIR, the only non-Hendrix compo the Experience did. And I don't like it!!!! The bass parts are the best parts of the toon........ ?

Bob-Dubery

aubs1 wrote:
X-rated Bob wrote:
........ but Hendrix and Mitch Miller were the guys who really made The Experience.
Mitch Mitchell, Bob.... ?

Uh... yeah... :-[ Mitch Miller was nothing much to do with anything you'd call Rock 'n Roll.

aubs1 wrote: But anyway Hendrix did the bass parts on quite a few tracks himself, which really pissed Noel off,.....

Noel played guitar on "Little miss Strange", and Jimi played bass. This was AFAIR, the only non-Hendrix compo the Experience did. And I don't like it!!!! The bass parts are the best parts of the toon........ ?

There was a Redding Composition on Axis Bold As Love (IIRC "She's So Fine"). "Hey Joe" was not a Hendrix composition. "Let The Good Times Roll" and "All Along the Watchtower" were, of course, not Hendrix compositions but I'm not sure they were recorded by the original Experience.

Riaan-Combrink

Alan Ratcliffe wrote: Bassists learn tasty playing over flashy long before guitarists and they understand that tasty will win over flash every single time. The best bassists always anchor the music down - even when they are being flashy at the same time.

Funny how I was thinking about this just this morning whilst driving into work. Was listening to The Who's Won't get fooled again - Entwhistle's bass is absolutely lifting that track to an amazing level, yet it's happening in such a way that you don't get it until you hear him climbing up the neck every once in a while. Great bass-line.

guitarboy2828

I do agree, that is why I said "it seems"... Stu Ham has a bass solo in one of Satch's concerts that just blows my mind, really cool..

I think people don't learn bass because IT SEEMS to be boring and kinda emotionless.. I have always loved bass, I learnt guitar though because our church needed a guitarist, now I'm a fully paid worship leader. Kinda hard to do on bass..

?

singemonkey

Riaan C wrote: Funny how I was thinking about this just this morning whilst driving into work. Was listening to The Who's Won't get fooled again - Entwhistle's bass is absolutely lifting that track to an amazing level, yet it's happening in such a way that you don't get it until you hear him climbing up the neck every once in a while. Great bass-line.

Entwhistle was an amazing player - despite being really busy. While he's got so much stuff going on, it never detracts from the sound. I guess it helped that Townsend didn't go in much for frilly lead stuff.