The effect of effects

Bob-Dubery

I popped into TJs last night. They just got themselves a new mixing desk - much bigger, posher etc etc.

So the first act goes on. Duncan Erikkson. Duncan's doing quite well and the audience is engaged. Then suddenly somebody at the desk (there were three of them sitting there) decided that what was needed was more reverb on the vocals. But they added quite a lot. Suddenly it sounds like Duncan's singing in a cave. But what was interesting to me was the effect on the audience. With all the reverb Duncan suddenly sounded a lot further away, and the audience all stopped listening to the music and started talking.

It was almost instant. Somebody tweaked some knob. Duncan suddenly sounds like he's further away. The audience started yakking. At first I thought it was the guy I was sitting next to. He started talking to me about the merits (or otherwise) of John Denver. I replied and then thought "hang on, there's some bloke up there singing, what are you doing?" but in the instant it took me to have that thought I realised that the whole place was engaged in all sorts of conversations.

The effect of effects! Duncan had a good thing going with the audience until somebody threw that switch / turned that knob / fiddled with that dial, then he was taken away from the audience and they were taken away from him.

baseline

Hi Bob.
I did not know the Teasers Johannesburg had gigs, Hehe only kidding, where is TJ's just for future reference.

Bob-Dubery

Steve R wrote: Hi Bob.
I did not know the Teasers Johannesburg had gigs, Hehe only kidding, where is TJ's just for future reference.

To give it it's full name it's "TJ's Acoustic Music Club". They generally have 3 meetings month, and the venue is Marks Park sports club in Emmarentia. There's a mix of pro and amateur musicians involved, and a mix of original compositions and covers. It's primarily but not exclusively acoustic guitars and vocals.

Usually they have a "proper" performance, with a pre-arranged lineup, on the 1st and 3rd Thursdays of the month, and an open mic night on the last thursday of the month.

TomCat

HeHe....must have been interesting.

We have a term in pro audio design called "Equivalent Acoustic Distance" or EAD. This represents the equivalent distance between a talker and the listener. When one is engaged in conversation it is usually with someone close to you (say 1 to 2 meters).

Without going into long and complicated explanations, what happened with the reverb here was that the EAD of the performer was dramatically increased, thereby losing the attention of the audience as now the performer is now (far away). So instead of the performer being up close and intimate with his audience, he was electronically removed from that intimacy so people started conversations with those who are now "Closer" to them.

Vick

Wow,intresting stuf man

baseline

that is interesting, how do you go about setting up for the "perfect" distance .oh and thanks Bob For the info.

Bob-Dubery

TomCat wrote: Without going into long and complicated explanations, what happened with the reverb here was that the EAD of the performer was dramatically increased, thereby losing the attention of the audience as now the performer is now (far away). So instead of the performer being up close and intimate with his audience, he was electronically removed from that intimacy so people started conversations with those who are now "Closer" to them.

That describes what happened exactly. Somebody threw whatever switch they threw, Duncan suddenly sounded like he was much further off and everybody started talking.

I was surprised that it happened so quickly, but I sensed that it was to do with Duncan sounding much farther away.

Interesting that although you know he hasn't moved and can see that he hasn't moved that the brain still reacts to the apparent change in distance.

AlanRatcliffe

Good post Tom. Karma'd.

You get the same thing with recording mixes too and must never put too much reverb on an instrument you want to be prominent in the mix.

TomCat

Thanks Alan.

We often refer to a phenomenon called Psycho-Acoustics. This relates as to how the brain interprets what is being heard through the ears.

There are many aspects to psycho-acoustics and some of it is still to be understood, but it has a major influence on how we experience and respond to the things we hear.

An interesting point is that 90% of it is sub conscious. I bet there are many times when you hear something, you know it's wrong, but you cannot define what is wrong. This is often the case when the psycho-acoustic aspect of the sound we hear is not correct.

In fact the whole aspect relating to stereo sound relies on psycho-acoustics to make it work.

Bob-Dubery

Tom, many thanks. Your replies have been very illuminating and given much food for thought. When this all happened last night I found it quite interesting, but it's way more interesting now ?

TomCat

Thanks Bob.

Something I find very interesting is what is called the "Anatomy of Reverberation" This is the structure of the decay of sound in a room or space.

This structure or anatomy is very important in terms of both psycho-acoustics as well as the musicality of instruments. Reverberation is a very complex animal to deal with where for example the first 80ms is vital to the perception and directionality of a voice or instrument.

I'm not going to go into the details here but maybe I'll put together another sticky under the PA section soon to explain further.

[deleted]

Okay this is very interesting, thanks Bob and Tom

So what effects are considered to make you seem further away? what else can change this EAD? only reverb?

I know distortion makes me stand up and walk out but that's another story...

TomCat

@ Brent

As I mentioned earlier, this is a very complex subject, but some of the main influences are:

1. The natural reverberation time of the room
2. The direct/reverberation ratio at any particular location in the room
3. The intensity, density, timing and direction of early reflections
4. Directivity and level of the loudspeaker systems.
5. The distance between the talker/singer and the microphone...i.e the direct/reverberation ratio of the picked up voice from the microphone.
6. In this case the addition of any artificial reverberation to the voice.

90% of these are subliminal and one only experiences the result of the combination of these influences.

an easy way of looking at it is the closer a person is when they talk to you the more direct their voice is and therefore the easier it it to understand them. The further away they are the softer they become and their voice includes more of the room's reverberation. When you are in conversation with someone you naturally move closer to them to have that conversation as it is "natural". during that conversation one automatically shuts out other conversations in that room.

EAD is used to re-create a similar distance for people who are further away, as on a stage, to bring them closer similar to that of a natural conversation as though the person was only a meter or so away from you, thereby increasing intimacy.

When the reverb was inadvertently turned up, it dramatically decreased the direct reverb ration, creating the impression that the person was further away.

I can see me writing that Sticky real soon....... ? ?

FatBoy

Wow guys, very interesting indeed! Can't wait for that sticky!!

singemonkey

So TomCat, how do you get that "intimate" vocal sound - like on some Lou Reed records - where it sounds like the vocalist's mouth is right up by you ear? Any thoughts?

AlanRatcliffe

singemonkey wrote: So TomCat, how do you get that "intimate" vocal sound - like on some Lou Reed records - where it sounds like the vocalist's mouth is right up by you ear? Any thoughts?

Ambience - very short reverb algorithms. Sounds like the singer is singing in a small box.