ANGER, MISERY!!

MikeM

More electric

Robert Van Der Linde (Durbs - Forum Member)
Manie Grove (Gp - Forum Member ?)

PeteM

Manfred Klose wrote:
Anyone else got a someone to add to the list?
maby even start a new thread with links to their websites?
not all of them have websites yet.

Robert van der Linde in Durban

RobK

Gearhead wrote:
RobK wrote: why can't I play them in the shops, right alongside the US ones?
Because the shop owner is trapped in the same hype cage as the rest of SA - they think that they will only sell US imports and maybe some MIJ. And super super cheapies.
I talked to several shop owners (and not small town guys, too) about hanging hanging a new brand on their walls and racks. I even offered them very good financial terms - to no avail. You can offer any brand as long as it is F or G or I, otherwise it's not going to sell.

You know what the funny thing is? - some of the local guys are most probably having more success with sales overseas.

So, we might eventually see them on our shelves, as imports.

Attila

RobK wrote:
why can't I play them in the shops, right alongside the US ones? It isn't any use to me that they're kept as secrets to be shared among the privileged few.

I don't think the local music shops think about it, they would rather sell 2000 guit/amp combo kits over Xmas. and make 1-2 gorillas + a piece without having to promote to hard...

Guys like Andy McGibbons would hold stock if asked... but I would rather go to the source and see his workshop..see his finishes try his equipment,... discuss fretboard radiuses etc etc.....

Bob had shared his experience with dealing Mervin .....nice people man

Lets get Nori/Allan to set a a proper resource section with links as someone suggested.

Manny good for you.... ( ps how do you fit "Der Brandenburg" on the headstock......tee heee ? )

I see Tomcat, Graham, Matt and the guys making boutique amps as well. ....

Bob-Dubery

bENDER wrote: Hi alle!

I'm really the [NASA new project name] in! >☹

Can anyone give me a GOOD reason why a person can buy a, lets say Dean Dixie Rebel in America for a average price of $1000*R8=R8000+- and then in pay R20000+++ in SA?? This is ludicrous! I mean, how much can courier costs be.....is it all because of import tax [CORRUPTION 101]??? We call ourselves a "modern" civilization!

I've got empathy with people like Adolf Hitler....maybe I must try and take over the WORLD BUWHAHAHAHAAHAHA!!! Then I can give everyone the opportunity to explore their talents without being held back because of money!

Keep in mind that the above example of the Dean aXE is just a stupid little incignifiCANT fact, the really important stuff we see everyday in our streets, on TV and we are all running around with chopped off hands….while those who deserve no hands have hands! ???

Let me start with my big plan....

"Tempers are wearing thin. Let's hope some robot doesn't kill everybody."

I think it's easy but wrong to just blame everything on corruption. I'll let you in on a little secret: If you convert from dollars to pounds then you will find that American instruments tend to cost more in the UK than in the USA, and British made instruments, amazingly, cost more in the USA than they do in the UK. Freight costs, customs etc etc. And if you buy the hypothetical instrument in London then you'll probably pay more than if you bought in Manchester, and in Manchester you'll probably be paying more than if you bought it in Norwich. Rents are higher in some cities and so the retailers need to make more just to cover having the shop open.

You're also assuming that it must necessarily be the government that is inflating prices by lining their pockets. The retailers and wholesalers are busy making a profit as well - don't leave them out of your calculations. Selling musical instruments is an expensive business. If you're selling loaves of bread and tins of baked beans you will turn over your stock very quickly and your money won't be sitting on the shelves of your store for very long. If you're selling guitars then the instrument (and thus the money you spent on it) may hang on a wall for months, even a year. So you can't do anything with that money that could be earning interest for you. So what do you do? Yes. Right first time. You increase the margin so that you still get some return on your money.

Interest rates are higher here than in many countries, so that has an effect. You have to pay more for the money that you borrow from the bank to stock your shop.

What we DON'T have here in some retail sectors is a lot of competition. Retailers tend to be fronts for wholesalers and thus "own" various brands. How many shops do you see stocking Schecter guitars for example? So the guys who do sell Schecters don't have a lot of competition from other shops that encourages them to keep their prices down.

Interestingly, if you look at some global brands - Johnny Walker is a good example - the prices, with exchange rates and duties factored in, are not the same across the world. Some markets will bear a heavier price for certain items or brands.

Welcome to the free market.

Bob-Dubery

RobK wrote:
Alan Ratcliffe wrote: Smaller run custom builds would be more expensive, and there's a limited market for higher price bracket stuff locally.
My question is - would we in South Africa be able to produce an instrument that would be the same quality as the imports, for less cost?

I think at the high end of the market, yes we could. Local luthiers could produce high end acoustic guitars that would compete with other high-end, small-run manufacturers. So if you wanted an alternative to Morgan or Lowden or Collings, then probably yes (though it would take a while for the market to buy into a brand name that is not seen on stages in the USA). But at the Cort, Tanglewood etc end of the market - no way.

Bob-Dubery

RobK wrote: +1 Attila.

However, I think that there is one small problem with buying local - availability. If there are SA luthiers making good instruments, why can't I play them in the shops, right alongside the US ones? It isn't any use to me that they're kept as secrets to be shared among the privileged few. If they're hanging on the wall at a shop and they're in the price range I'm willing to spend, I'd consider them as much as I would an import.

The guys we're talking about build hand made instruments in small shops (one or two craftsmen) and in small numbers. Now that 's the same game as they guys they are competing with. They are not competing with even the high-end mass manufactured brands like Martin and Taylor, they are up against Collings and Lowden and Fylde and the like. And you know what? You can't just waltz into a shop any time you like and play one of those instruments either. Lowden's production run is 500 instruments a year, excluding custom jobs. How many shops in the world do you think you can go into an try a Lowden out? You can't get the things in London. You can buy in Manchester and Norwich and a couple of other centres, but they're expensive instruments and you may find that if you want to try one out you'll have to make an appointment or at least speak to the sales people very nicely. The Lowden dealer in Norwich is by appointment only (for any of their guitars, and they only sell high-end stuff). The dealer in Manchester keeps them behind a chain and with electronic "tremblers" in case anybody decides to have a go whilst the sales staff aren't looking.

Bob-Dubery

RobK wrote: You know what the funny thing is? - some of the local guys are most probably having more success with sales overseas.

They are. Take Mervyn Davis for example. Heck! Take ANY luthier running a one man shop and making high-end acoustic guitars to his own design. They are selling into a niche market. The niche market just happens to be a lot bigger overseas and especially in the USA. Capture 0.05% of the market there and you've got a lot of customers.

So, we might eventually see them on our shelves, as imports.

I don't think so. You can go to Marc Maingard or Mervyn Davis and order from them. You go into the same queue for finished instruments as the rest of the world.

BMU

X-rated Bob hits it on the nose, imo. It's easy to blame corruption, local vendor short-sightedness, greed, SA being so "third world" etc; it's a convenient list of habitual scapegoats, but all of it is naive. It's just how world markets work. We're a small market, far away from the main centres, that's all. We're no worse off than other small markets. It only seems that way when you look at the discounted Guitarcenter/Musiciansfriend dollar prices and forget to do the math.

DonovanB

Manfred Klose wrote: Anyone else got a someone to add to the list?

Shaun O'Neill makes amazing instruments as well. He's in Durban.

If I'm going to spend R11k+ on an instrument I'd get it custom made. without a doubt

Manfred-Klose

Thanks donovan, i have added him to the list:
I suppose he does electric, let me know if he does anything else, the more info the better.

http://www.guitarforum.co.za/contacts/sa-guitar-luthiers/msg50070/#msg50070

yay, so i went from no one to loads of luthiers on the list.
thanks guys.

Bob-Dubery

I was at McGibbon's a couple of weeks back and a couple of blokes walked in with a guitar they wanted Andy to look at. Not because it needed repair, but to get an opinion on the construction. It was Fender-ish, but not an exact copy of a Strat or Tele. Said two blokes were looking at making electric guitars for distribution into the local market. IIRC they were looking at using woods that were easily available locally for some of the work (this is not that outlandish an idea, Mervyn Davis uses Kiaat for necks). This was a prototype and they knew it wasn't good enough, but they wanted to get pointers. Things like the bridge, the machine heads, the pickups were imported, but they believed they could make something of reasonable quality locally.

Don't remember their names, even though I had a brief chat with them. IIRC they were going to consult with Mervyn Davis as well.

So somebody is thinking of trying to make electric guitars locally - and not just from kits either.

matta

I see Tomcat, Graham, Matt and the guys making boutique amps as well.....

Well I can't speak for the others, but I know that is my hope, to be making amps/pedals and other boutique electronic goodies here in SA, for Saffer's. I have already been doing that with my pro audio products for studios for the past 5 years, I've build a strong and loyal following/client base and the same guys come back to me time and again when I do short runs of boutique pieces.

Obviously I have Fuzzsilla on the cards (gosh been talking about it for +6 months now!!!) and a yet to be name Tubescreamerish pedal in the works and my long term goal is a to have a custom amp that is lovingly built here on SA soil, I just know it is is hard for guys to buy into the 'custom' or 'boutique' markets, but hopefully time/awareness will break down those proverbial walls.

I know we are thankful for your support and we really do appreciate it.

Cheers

Matt

Sean

Attila wrote:

In fact , I challenge all the members on the forum to aim to have at least one locally built instrument in their collection in their life time.

Actually, waiting for my locally built instrument to be completed by Gearhead, although technically, Gearhead is Dutch. Does that still qualify ??? ?

Manfred-Klose

If its built locally on SA soil, its local. ?

TomCat

Manfred Klose wrote: If its built locally on SA soil, its local. ?

With a small splash of Dutch Flair...... ? ?....Go Gearhead

TomCat

I would not call myself a builder of boutique amplifiers.....I don't know yet if the first one I'm building for myself is even going to work...and if it does...how good it will sound. I'm building my amp as a project for my own pleasure as an enthusiast.

However......should it be a spectacular success maybe I will look at making a few more...... :-\ :-\....Lets see what happens.....

If one looks at the cost of parts and the time spent in research, procuring parts etc... the cost is not going to be much less than buying a fully imported brand name amplifier of similar spec..so not much saving in local build there....But it is fun and one learns heaps in the process that money cannot buy.

TomCat

Attila wrote: my 25c again guys, when I see some of the junk the industry imports and shove down gullible consumers throats with glitzy advertising ....I dont buy argument that our market is too small....we import shitloads...... man that makes my blood boil

. >☹

@ Atilla.....First of all I'm glad you got that off your chest and that you feel better... ? ?

A lot of what you say is valid to a point...However...I used to work for a major distributor of Pro Audio kit in South Africa and unfortunately we as a market are small....This is precisely the reason why the low quality stuff is pushed into a market like SA....It's safe and stock moves fast into a relatively ignorant market....members of this forum excluded.... ? ?

What makes a forum like this so good is that we can all look at what is happening and take it for what it is. At the end of the day WE ARE THE CUSTOMERS in this market and we therefore have some power over where it goes.

I think a lot of the comments made here in this thread are valid and is food for thought. As was mentioned we face the same challenge any smaller market faces....Markets with similar volumes will be paying the same ballpark prices as at the end of the day as it is still to a large degree a volume thing.

the comment made about stock sitting on the shelf for long periods is also very valid. I have a friend who recently bought a JM Signature Stat. There was only one in the store (One of the larger Fender Retailers in SA)...not a 2008/09 model but a 2006/07 model. He got it at a discounted price because it was a discontinued model. At the end of the day, the store, when one considers the cost of purchase by the store as stock, lost bank interest by it not being sold etc...it was probably sold at either break even or even maybe at a loss...

Just another point before I put a sock in it....There is a lot of issues with local distributors and their attitude toward customers......I called the (now old) Celestion agent to get some guitar loudspeaker prices. When I told the sales person over the phone that I wanted guitar loudspeaker prices I was tolld that I cannot get any prices from them because "they are too expensive... ??? ???".
I was somewhat taken back as I have never been told before that I cannot buy something because the supplier though that it was too expensive...I though that was my decision to make...

Sean

TomCat wrote: I was told that I cannot get any prices from them because "they are too expensive... ??? ???".

??? Strange, very strange

Tokai-SA

Alan Ratcliffe wrote: A large part is that you are looking at a US guitar's price in the US. It's handled locally by a distributor, instead of the shop buying it directly from Dean USA (and distributors deserve to make a profit too, don't they?). Add on the small factor of getting it the 5,000 extra km into a shop here. Then finally add on our 14% VAT courtesy of SARS and you'll see the price gap isn't as wide as you think.

The retail price on the Dixie Rebel is $1,500, Sure you can find it at Musician's friend for $1,000, but that's because MF have the buying power to get really, really good prices - they probably pay less than the distributor here does. They also move enough stock to be able to make less profit on each item. They move far more Dean guitars (or any brand for that matter) than we do as a country. So in other words, buy more guitars and you'll start seeing the prices come down. ?

Good enough reasons?

+ 1 on your explanation.