ANGER, MISERY!!

bENDER

Hi alle!

I'm really the [NASA new project name] in! >☹

Can anyone give me a GOOD reason why a person can buy a, lets say Dean Dixie Rebel in America for a average price of $1000*R8=R8000+- and then in pay R20000+++ in SA?? This is ludicrous! I mean, how much can courier costs be.....is it all because of import tax [CORRUPTION 101]??? We call ourselves a "modern" civilization!

I've got empathy with people like Adolf Hitler....maybe I must try and take over the WORLD BUWHAHAHAHAAHAHA!!! Then I can give everyone the opportunity to explore their talents without being held back because of money!

Keep in mind that the above example of the Dean aXE is just a stupid little incignifiCANT fact, the really important stuff we see everyday in our streets, on TV and we are all running around with chopped off hands….while those who deserve no hands have hands! ???

Let me start with my big plan....

"Tempers are wearing thin. Let's hope some robot doesn't kill everybody."

MikeM

That's life in SA ? Pc parts are the same...

AlanRatcliffe

A large part is that you are looking at a US guitar's price in the US. It's handled locally by a distributor, instead of the shop buying it directly from Dean USA (and distributors deserve to make a profit too, don't they?). Add on the small factor of getting it the 5,000 extra km into a shop here. Then finally add on our 14% VAT courtesy of SARS and you'll see the price gap isn't as wide as you think.

The retail price on the Dixie Rebel is $1,500, Sure you can find it at Musician's friend for $1,000, but that's because MF have the buying power to get really, really good prices - they probably pay less than the distributor here does. They also move enough stock to be able to make less profit on each item. They move far more Dean guitars (or any brand for that matter) than we do as a country. So in other words, buy more guitars and you'll start seeing the prices come down. ?

Good enough reasons?

RobK

I have a general guideline I use when comparing US prices with local ones. I take the US retail and multiply it by 10. I take that figure and add in shipping and duties(if any) and VAT and if the local price is reasonably close to that total, I buy local.

Most of the time, the local price (and not just guitars) comes pretty close and sometimes I get a discount which will bring it within range of what I'm prepared to pay, so I still end up buying local.

Gearhead

If only you would not look at those yanks... Would it not be possible to do a small production run of (put whatever axe type you want) right here in SA? Sure it would. Are there no good luthiers in SA? Sure there are. To me this double standard of wanting to import but wanting it at local prices is counter productive.

BMU

I use a similar formula to RobK. Or take the list price times the exchange rate, plus VAT plus about R3000 for shipping. Not the discounted selling price in America, per Alan's point about volume discounts. I mean be reasonable, how many of those are going to get sold in SA, ever? One? Three? Maybe eight, tops? There's just no volume to speak of.

But still, I agree in this particular case R20k is way too steep for that guitar, it should be around R15k. Just checking out of curiosity, Take2 has it for R12k! That seems like a good price, is it the same model etc? I don't know my Deans very well.

http://more.take2.co.za/usa?deptname=MusicalInstruments&qsearch=dean+dixie+rebel

DonovanB

Gearhead wrote: If only you would not look at those yanks... Would it not be possible to do a small production run of (put whatever axe type you want) right here in SA? Sure it would. Are there no good luthiers in SA? Sure there are. To me this double standard of wanting to import but wanting it at local prices is counter productive.

I've thought of that before. but production in numbers keeps their costs down so many small manufacturers will cost more than one big one. Economies of scale. Maybe someone (hint hint) should start a guitar factory here. Maybe it will get some attention and the big names will move their factories to SA instead.

MikeM

I can work part time next year :? However one can never be certain about the market.

AlanRatcliffe

Compared to the Asians, our labour laws are too restrictive and labour rates too high, pretty much blows local mass manufacturing out of the water. Smaller run custom builds would be more expensive, and there's a limited market for higher price bracket stuff locally.

Tokai-SA

bENDER wrote:
I've got empathy with people like Adolf Hitler....

Really???...interesting.

Trust me, if you were able to get the guitar direct from the distributor you'd still complain.

RobK

Alan Ratcliffe wrote: Smaller run custom builds would be more expensive, and there's a limited market for higher price bracket stuff locally.

My question is - would we in South Africa be able to produce an instrument that would be the same quality as the imports, for less cost?

I'd like to think it could be done, but I also think you'd have a hard time convincing the buying public that a vuvuguitar is just as good as that Fender, Gibson or what-have-you import.

AlanRatcliffe

RobK wrote: My question is - would we in South Africa be able to produce an instrument that would be the same quality as the imports, for less cost?

Not at a lower cost.

I also think you'd have a hard time convincing the buying public that a vuvuguitar is just as good as that Fender, Gibson or what-have-you import.

Well even other US guitars have a hard time doing that. Look how long it took John Suhr, and his quality blows the big manufacturers away. Hamer, Heritage, any number of other companies doing better work than Gibson but that are not able to compete.

Gearhead

DonovanB wrote: production in numbers keeps their costs down so many small manufacturers will cost more than one big one

The cost of an average US worker is substantially more than that of a South African. To me the big gain is not in the large production scale (where a lot is automated) but in the smaller scale, mid end market. Hence my hint about the SA luthier.

DonovanB wrote: Maybe someone (hint hint) should start a guitar factory here

Yes someone hint hint should. Someone with a good deal of experience building guitars. If someone like that should need any financial backing, CAD drawings or some DFMA advice, let them call me.

DonovanB wrote: Maybe it will get some attention and the big names will move their factories to SA instead.

Who needs the big names? Paul Reed Smith used to have a smaller shop than a couple of SA luthiers nowadays, stuff could happen here too.

Alan Ratcliffe wrote: Well even other US guitars have a hard time doing that. Look how long it took John Suhr, and his quality blows the big manufacturers away. Hamer, Heritage, any number of other companies doing better work than Gibson but that are not able to compete.

... which is for the exact same reason that I'm challenging here: the world wide notion that it has to be a Gibson or a Fender. I'm not saying that SA could now come up with a brand like that (no one can at this stage) but what I am saying is that the wheel of local production -> competition -> better pricing -> growing local market -> more local production can only be set in motion by manufacturing.

One example is Mervyn Davis - he does not have to compete with Gibson since he is innovative.

RobK

Alan Ratcliffe wrote:
RobK wrote: My question is - would we in South Africa be able to produce an instrument that would be the same quality as the imports, for less cost?
Not at a lower cost.

I assume that would be because most of the materials/parts would still have to be imported?

I also think you'd have a hard time convincing the buying public that a vuvuguitar is just as good as that Fender, Gibson or what-have-you import.
Well even other US guitars have a hard time doing that. Look how long it took John Suhr, and his quality blows the big manufacturers away. Hamer, Heritage, any number of other companies doing better work than Gibson but that are not able to compete.

I think that's because noone really "pushes", or rather promotes, those brands. Most of the brands I've learnt of since I joined this forum, I've never seen in a local shop.

So, how could a Joe Average like myself, who knows that Fender is a well known brand(an not much else) be convinced to buy something he's never heard of?

What would work for me is if someone maybe offered something like - Take this brand ABwhatever - same materials and quality parts as that strat you were looking at but it's R 5000 cheaper. Try it for 7 days, and if you're not happy bring it back, pay in the R5000 you were going to spend anyway and we'll swap it for the strat.

Think promotions like that would work?

TomCat

A lot of it also has to do with buying power. The entire South African market in terms of volume is smaller that most of the larger retail sores in the USA. I'm not talking about the chain of stores..we are talking here about an individual store so they usually get better volume discounts than the SA importer is getting.

TomCat

RobK wrote:
Alan Ratcliffe wrote: Smaller run custom builds would be more expensive, and there's a limited market for higher price bracket stuff locally.
My question is - would we in South Africa be able to produce an instrument that would be the same quality as the imports, for less cost?

I'd like to think it could be done, but I also think you'd have a hard time convincing the buying public that a vuvuguitar is just as good as that Fender, Gibson or what-have-you import.

Again it's a volume game. More Strats are made in a day in the USA/Mexican factory than what SA musicians will buy in a year. Price drops as volume increases...So if a South African manufacturer makes (and sells) the same volume of AB-SA-caster guitars as fender then it would be cheaper...

Manfred-Klose

Maybe someone (hint hint) should start a guitar factory here.

that is my long term goal ?

Since i started building my first guitar(hopefully finished in a month), alot of people approach me to build one for them, i already got in 2 orders for custom guitars, so i just have to plan better in the future.
There is definetly people willing to buy local made guitars, due low quality and high prices of other intruments from other countries.

..................watch this space. ?

AlanRatcliffe

RobK wrote: I assume that would be because most of the materials/parts would still have to be imported?

Partly, yes. The popular/best species of wood are mostly grown elsewhere (many in Asia). We have the skills to make the metal parts here, but no local manufacturing company can compete with an Asian manufacturer who has lower labour costs and is already churning them out by the thousands. The only way to break out of that is to make higher quality parts, which instantly places your product in the higher price brackets. Look at the US manufacturers - even the big ones don't make their own lower priced lines in the US - they cannot afford to.

The single biggest cost in building a guitar is labour and our labour laws and minimum wages make it much more expensive to hire people to build anything here. There is setup cost too. But go to NAMM or frankfurt and there are dozens of experienced Asian manufacturers, already tooled-up and vying with each other for business. It would be far cheaper for me to build a South African brand guitar in Asia and import it (like the "Proudly South African" T-Shirt debacle).

I think that's because noone really "pushes", or rather promotes, those brands.

Locally no-one can afford to. In the US, you'll see a lot of love on the forums for those brands, but still the majority of buyers go the safe route. A big part of that is also the resale value.

What would work for me is if someone maybe offered something like - Take this brand ABwhatever - same materials and quality parts as that strat you were looking at but it's R 5000 cheaper. Try it for 7 days, and if you're not happy bring it back, pay in the R5000 you were going to spend anyway and we'll swap it for the strat.

Sadly I think the shop would end up selling off a bunch of secondhand product cheaply.

RobK

Alan Ratcliffe wrote:
I think that's because noone really "pushes", or rather promotes, those brands.
Locally no-one can afford to. In the US, you'll see a lot of love on the forums for those brands, but still the majority of buyers go the safe route. A big part of that is also the resale value.

Affordabilility is, I think, only one part of it. Surely a R5000 Fender and a R5000 Hamer (eg.) would cost about the same to import? I think it's also about importers not willing to take the risk that they'll end up with stock they paid for and can't sell. Known brands sell quicker. Nothing wrong with that, I'd also like to have as quick a turnaround on items I'd sell. Unfortunatelly it means that consumers loose out on choice. Wouldn't it be great to walk into a shop and find 10 (OK, maybe 7 in SA ? ) different brands in your price range to try?

Attila

my 25c again guys, when I see some of the junk the industry imports and shove down gullible consumers throats with glitzy advertising ....I dont buy argument that our market is too small....we import shitloads...... man that makes my blood boil

I looked at local Luthiers and there is a lot of them once you go looking and damn good ones too..... and I am not talking about the Mainguards of the world.

Problem is, We brand conscious dickheads ARE the problem. Everything is mos better from the US-of-A

Support our local industry and it will grow. The demand will force the local industry to skill up and tool up buy in bulk to serve buyers.

In fact , I challenge all the members on the forum to aim to have at least one locally built instrument in their collection in their life time. (we should create a local resourse list for the members)

there said it .... I feel much better now

. >☹