Boutique vs Production Line effects pedals

JoeyBones · 2008-05-15T08:06:04+00:00

I've looked into boutique pedals over the last couple months and bought a ZVEX Box Of Rock, ZVEX Fuzz Factory and a Cuzack Tap-A-Whirl.They are great pedals...

Boutique vs Production Line effects pedals

ralley

Joey,
A FET is just a type of component, it can be used in buffering or in the main effect itself. Similarly other types of components (MOSFET, bipolar transistors) can also be used in the buffers or the effect itself.

Most of the Boss effects use opamps and the like for the actual effect itself. Not sure but I think your right about using FETs in the buffer. From what I've read the Box Of Rock uses FETs for the actual effect (they are commonly used in the DIY scene to emulate valves/tubes).

Whatever component is used in the effect for either the buffers or the main effect is actually a moot point - it's the overall design that is important, not the components (despite what the "Mojo" crowd seem to think). Good and bad sounds can be produced with any type of component.

Also buffers per say are not a bad thing, a well designed buffer (and most commercial ones are) is actually a good thing. What can be bad is stacking of lots of buffers, this happens when using a bunch of buffered units together as each typically has both an input and output buffer. However stringing together a bunch of true bypass effects (and not all that are labelled as such actually are true bypass) is also a bad thing, leading to "loading" of the guitars pickups and subsequent loss of high frequencies.

The best compromise seems to be a buffer at the start of your effects chain, all your true bypass effects and then a buffer at the end of the effects chain. This can be achieved with either standalone buffers (not sure what is available commercially, most seem to be DIY) or by bookending your effects chain with buffered effects. E.g:

Guitar -> Buffer -> TB -> TB -> ... -> TB -> TB -> Buffer -> Amp

Where: Buffer = Standalone buffer or buffered effect pedal
TB = True Bypass effect pedal

This is further complicated by some effects (typically fuzz) not sounding good (to most people) if placed after a buffer (due to their low input impedance).

Rob.

Mr-M

ralley is right about the FETs, Joey.

What he's saying about needing a buffer in front (and sometimes after) a TB pedal-chain is something I found out about first-hand after switching to only TB pedals (like I mentioned before). Without it there is a serious lack of HF and the output level (due to the pickup loading) is quite a bit lower when it gets to your amp.

There are some fuzz pedals which do still work after buffers (I'm sure you notice that the self-oscillation of your Fuzz Factory doesn't work if you put it behind any of your Boss pedals and it probably doesn't sound great there either) - check out http://www.subdecay.com/ft.htm
No self-oscillation or weird tones on this one, but using any of those tones in church will probably get you in trouble, so I don't think that will bother you. It does have tone controls, which you don't get on the FF (which can be seriously piercing) which is a bonus. Also cheaper.

Mr-M

Joey, maybe I could make a few suggestions on replacement pedals for your Boss/ Ibanez items if you want to go TB?

AlanRatcliffe

I'm one of those who doesn't completely buy into the true bypass trend. It has it's application - for the tone purist who only has one or two pedals. For those of you with a number of effects, buffered inputs makes more sense - it drops the impedance of the signal so that cables and connectors are less of a problem and the guitar sees a consistent input impedance, whether the effect is engaged or not.

The issue with buffer circuits is the quality of the circuitry. A good electronic buffer does not alter the tone, while a bad one does. With any electronic circuit, good components are more expensive, and the actual circuit path will often be more complex - and this is very true with buffers. Inexpensive pedals will often have lesser quality components - which is why there are so many guys like Mark Humphrey and Analog Man modding them for people, and many places selling modding "kits" for a variety of popular pedals.

A buffer can be designed with transistors or with opamp chips. FET's (field effect transistors) are popular for guitar effects as they work at relatively high impedance and tend to distort a lot nicer than other types of transistors. Op amps (which are basically amplifier circuits in one package) can also be FET-based.

JoeyBones

My heads spinning ???

I guess I was expecting to get balled over with all the technical terms but I think I get the gist of it.

This is what I had in mind and I really don't want to replace any of the pedals I have if I don't have to.

Guitar -> Radial PB1 Booster-> Ibanez WD7 -> Zvex Fuzz Factory -> Zvex Box of Rock -> Lovejraft Mojo Drive ->Boss MD-2 (In TB Looper) -> Cusack Tremolo -> DD-5 (In TB Looper) -> Ibanez AD-9 -> BBE Mind Bender (Chorus Vibrato)

I had an idea to use an AB line selector after the WD7 that would completely remove the drive and dist pedals section from the signal chain when playing clean, plus it would make switching between dirty and clean a lot simpler when I've got 2 drives layered.

Let me know what you guys think. I'm open to suggestions.

AlanRatcliffe

Took me a while to write that last post (in between other things) and some of you beat me to it. ?

Whatever component is used in the effect for either the buffers or the main effect is actually a moot point - it's the overall design that is important, not the components (despite what the "Mojo" crowd seem to think).

Sorry I have to differ there - many pedal circuits are simple (and often the same) designs and the biggest difference will be in the quality of the components. Look at all the tube screamer clones, which are not all created equal. By your reasoning, a 741 sounds the same as a TL071, as an LF353, as an OPA2134PA, etc., etc., etc.. Which quite honestly, any set of cloth ears will be able to discern between.

Not a matter of opinion either. In audio - especially the high end musical equipment (consoles, mic preamps, etc.) - there are pretty well established pecking orders of components chosen for sound quality and character above price (sometimes with more than thirty years critical evaluation by the most "golden-eared" engineers and sound designers ever). While the high gain (40 - 60dB) of a mic preamp or the multiple summed signals of a console (sometimes hundreds, and each channel strip will have multiple gain stages) makes these more critical applications than a pedal, a pedal can usually still benefit from these parts - particularly where it comes to something like buffers, which are a critical Hi-Fi type circuit.

BTW - I don't see any reason why you can't use a while string of buffered effects in a row. The low Z inputs mean that they can work equally well with low or hi Z source impedances.

JoeyBones

Trust me to open a can of worms :-X

ralley

Sorry Alan,
A bit of confusion there - there is certainly a difference between components as you suggest. What I was trying to get across (poorly) is that the class of component (i.e. FET vs. MOSFET vs. Bipolar etc) is not necessarily what makes an effect sound good or bad - it is how those components are used.

Regarding multiple buffers affecting sound - every component through which your signal passes adds some noise. Even when bypassed (i.e. "clean") buffered effects are passing the signal through a series of components, the more buffers the more noise added.

Rob.

JoeyBones

This is kinda off topic, but I though I'd throw it in since were talking about ways to improve tone. I tested my 1spot power supply (1.7A) against my buddies no name brand Power Supply (2A) and I'm sad to say his power supply gave me better tone. Mine seem to dull my tone a bit.

AlanRatcliffe

ralley wrote: A bit of confusion there - there is certainly a difference between components as you suggest. What I was trying to get across (poorly) is that the class of component (i.e. FET vs. MOSFET vs. Bipolar etc) is not necessarily what makes an effect sound good or bad - it is how those components are used.

Whoops! Jumped on my high horse too quickly there. Yes. Absolutely. Agreed </grovel>

Regarding multiple buffers affecting sound - every component through which your signal passes adds some noise. Even when bypassed (i.e. "clean") buffered effects are passing the signal through a series of components, the more buffers the more noise added.

Granted. You're talking unity gain though, which is pretty easy to design ultra low noise buffers for. Once again, It comes back to who is designing and building the buffer. I suppose the question is (to bring things back on topic): do boutique pedals with buffers have better buffers than mass produced pedals?

Mr-M

This is what I had in mind and I really don't want to replace any of the pedals I have if I don't have to.
Guitar -> Radial PB1 Booster-> Ibanez WD7 -> Zvex Fuzz Factory -> Zvex Box of Rock -> Lovejraft Mojo Drive ->Boss MD-2 (In TB Looper) -> Cusack Tremolo -> DD-5 (In TB Looper) -> Ibanez AD-9 -> BBE Mind Bender (Chorus Vibrato)

Put the Fuzz Factory BEFORE all the other pedals (incl the Wah & PB-1). Germanium fuzzes don't normally sound great after buffers. You will notice an improvement in tone for that pedal.

I had an idea to use an AB line selector after the WD7 that would completely remove the drive and dist pedals section from the signal chain when playing clean, plus it would make switching between dirty and clean a lot simpler when I've got 2 drives layered.

Rather use another TB looper for that. The AB box won't be easy to integrate. You'd have to have something after the two signal paths (clean/ dist) to re-combine the signals into your amp (some kind of 2-input, 1-output summing bus/ mixer, but that would defeat the object of cleaning up your signal flow). Except of course if you haul two amps with you - one for each signal path. AND two instrument mics. AND an extra mic stand. AND a sound guy that will actually understand what's going on. AND, and......etc. Trust me, an extra TB looper is an easier way to do this.

Let me know what you guys think. I'm open to suggestions.

Chuck the WD7. The buffer in that pedal is not great. I had one for a while. Decent wah, but the tone-sucking was pretty noticeable, although not as bad as a standard CryBaby. Try a Crybaby 535Q. TB and a Fasel Inductor with all the Variable Q you'd want. No auto off though. I didn't like that about the WD7 though. I sometimes like to set the wah in a position and leave it there for some lo-fi tones. Can't do that with the WD7. It would also sometimes switch off when I was rocking in the lower reaches of the wah sweep. Yes, I did play with the auto-off times...
Try out a MI Audio Tube Zone at Music Connection. You will walk out the store with one! So versatile, so organic, so much gain if you want it. Last I saw around R1800. It might be a good replacement for your MD-2. BTW what do you use the MD-2 for? http://www.miaudio.com/TZ1.htm

JoeyBones

Thanks for the info M. I had an old Cry Baby and the 535Q but I like the on/off action of the WD7. Aren't there other wahs that activate this way that don't suck as much tone? I think I'll stick the WD-7 behind a looper for now. I've ordered the switches and I have a casing. Should have all the parts within the next couple of weeks.

I use the MD-2 for heavier rhythm and I'm trying some lead stuff through it. I've tried the tube zone before and it just didn't work for me. That was over a year ago. I guess I should try it again.

I layered my TS9-DX (TS-9 Mode) over my Box of rock on Sunday and it sounded pretty good. The guy backed out of the deal for the mojo drive, so this was the closest I could get to that sound. It was nice because I could drop out the TS-9 for a nice rhythm drive tone and I dropped out the Box of rock for the more jazzy songs.

BTW I almost sold my Ashdown Fallen Angel. Lucky for me my buddy is really good at setting gear up and he helped me dial in some awesome tones. If only I can find someone to dial some skill into my fingers.

I really don't wanna spend anymore on gear for now (Unless I get a great deal on a Les Paul Standard ? ), so I guess I'll just stick to practicing for now.

Mr-M

Yeah

JoeyBones wrote: Thanks for the info M. I had an old Cry Baby and the 535Q but I like the on/off action of the WD7. Aren't there other wahs that activate this way that don't suck as much tone? I think I'll stick the WD-7 behind a looper for now. I've ordered the switches and I have a casing. Should have all the parts within the next couple of weeks.

The Morley stuff also has the auto on-off & the Dunlop 95Q, but I think you'll be better off with what you have if you have to have the auto-off. No others I know of.
You can buy a Radial Bigshot EFX for around R699, which is a proper dual loop true bypass looper. Only needs LEDs added. Might save you some time.

I use the MD-2 for heavier rhythm and I'm trying some lead stuff through it. I've tried the tube zone before and it just didn't work for me. That was over a year ago. I guess I should try it again.

The TZ is a hard pedal to dial in if you don't understand what all the controls do, especially the "character" knob. Leave it fully "off" for tight high-gain tones. Seems to be most people's mistake with that pedal. Otherwise it sounds very loose and woolly. Has alot of tonal possibilities if you have time to play with it.

[quote[I layered my TS9-DX (TS-9 Mode) over my Box of rock on Sunday and it sounded pretty good. The guy backed out of the deal for the mojo drive, so this was the closest I could get to that sound. It was nice because I could drop out the TS-9 for a nice rhythm drive tone and I dropped out the Box of rock for the more jazzy songs.[/quote]
This setup will be simpler way to get a decent amount of tonal variety with less drive pedals. Sometimes less is more!

Ashdown amps are better than people give them credit for. It will defnitely be worth keeping if you can dial your tones in nicely.

I really don't wanna spend anymore on gear for now (Unless I get a great deal on a Les Paul Standard ? ), so I guess I'll just stick to practicing for now.

I'll try to calm down on the recommendations for you! Sorry, can't help it. I like gear too much...Oh the GAS!

BTW, do you still want to know about your power supply issue you mentioned before?

JoeyBones

My brother is working on a rechargeable battery power supply for me. This should resolve a lot of fuss with cables. I'm trying to make setup and pack up as quick and pain less as possible.

Either I'm just careless or people are sabotaging my cables, but I've killed 2 in the last few months. I wanna go wireless from my guitar to my pedalboard as well.

I've been looking at the Samson AP1, but I don't have the cash for a wireless unit right now.

Mr-M

Battery? How long will it last? I've seen stuff like this before and batteries are the cleanest and quietest sources of power so it will be great if it lasts and isn't too big. It might have to be big considering the amount of pedals you have.

Check out this site if you want to know more about PSUs for guitar pedals: -http://www.stinkfoot.se/andreas/diy/power/psu.htm

You must be careless! I'm probably one of the wildest people you've ever seen on stage and I've been using the same Planet Waves for 2 1/2 years! Or you have a saboteur in your midst.... Trust no-one, especially not drummers! Just joking.

Wireless is possibly the worst thing you could do for you tone. Your fuzz might not work at all with it because those need direct pickup interaction to work properly.
If you really must, go with a DIGITAL Wireless system. These have much better tone compared to the analogue wireless systems. I'm not going to go into why, but if you read for yourself it is pretty easy to understand:
http://www.x2digitalwireless.com/product_main.htm
http://www.premierguitar.com/Magazine/Issue/2007/Aug/X2_Digital_Wireless_XDS95.aspx

The Samson or AKG Guitar Bugs are really convenient but they have nothing on the X2 Stuff in terms of tone. They are fairly affordable in $ as well. Since they just got bought by Line 6 their products might become available locally from the L6 distributors.

JoeyBones

One of the batteries I looked at was rated at 17 Amp hours. Weight and size are definitely considerations. My brother is really busy right now, so I haven't pressured him about it. We can't seem to find a regulator board that'll step a 12v battery down to 9V and we can't find a 9V rechargeable battery. Maybe I just don't know where to look. I'm an IT guy not an electronics junky. Where's Ralley when we need him ?

I've seen the X2, but it's expensive. I guess I'll have to live with cables for now. I have a really nice Fender cable which is actually the first cable I ever got. I use it to run to my amp and it hasn't failed me once in the 5 years I've been playing.

Mr-M

Hope you come right with the battery thing! ;D

ralley

Hey Joey,
I'm an IT guy too - no electronics background, I just dabble. Building something to drop 12v down to 9v should be pretty easy, let me look around. That said a decent power supply would be easier and a lot lighter and smaller, plus of course no forgetting to re-charge it. I just use a little Boss wall wart with a diasy chain cable to power a bunch of pedals. Cost about R300 and it's dead quiet. The one-spot seems to get recomended a lot as well and I think is available locally.

Rob.

JoeyBones

Hey Ralley,

I'd appreciate any info you can find. I'd like to at least give it a try.

I tried my buddies no name power supply and it definitely made a difference. There's a clear improvement in tone over the 1spot. The 1spot is good (Rated 1,700ma), but my buddies 2,000ma is definitely better, plus it was about R100 cheaper than the 1Spot. I had a boss power supply but it was the smaller one and it wasn't powerful enough for all my pedals. My delays kept cutting out.

A good thing about my buddies PSu is it uses a power cable like the ones used on Laptop power supplies, so there's less chance of it coming loose from the power socket.

Mr-M

JoeyBones wrote: This is kinda off topic, but I though I'd throw it in since were talking about ways to improve tone. I tested my 1spot power supply (1.7A) against my buddies no name brand Power Supply (2A) and I'm sad to say his power supply gave me better tone. Mine seem to dull my tone a bit.

I have to agree with ralley, although batteries do sound great. But the hassle!
If you use your 1-spot, try disconnecting any time-based effects (like Delay, Chorus, Reverb etc.) and your FF from the daisy chain and running those on their own PSUs or on batteries. It should sound a bit better. Those sorts of effects often don't sound as great as they could with digital switching PSUs like the 1spot.

Or you could try some of these: http://www.thegigrig.com/acatalog/TheGigRig_Virtual_Battery.html
Got some of these a few weeks ago and man have they saved me hassles with the tone of my germanium fuzzes!