Thoughts on a boutique 5 watt offering?

matta

Hey Guys,

As many of you know I've been doing a few mods to couple of chinese built Fender Champion 600 amps and investigating mods for the Blackheart's as well... both these amp have the potential to be rocking little amps for bedroom/studio and even some gig situations with a couple tweaks.

The problem with ALL of them is that they come with cheap parts, and in many cases a badly laid out circuit boards, cheap valves/speakers/transformers etc... just Google mods for either of those amps and see what comes up! It was kind of started by the Epiphone Valve Jr some years back and shows no sign of stopping...

I just have an issue with guys spending R3000+ on any of these amps and another R2,000+ to mod them, so you are R5,000 in the hole, you get a solid tone hound, but you could, or should be able to get a GREAT amp for that kind of money out of the box!

I was having this discussion with Karel Mars the other day saying that it is impossible for us to be able to hand build amps here in SA for that price trying to match the same kind of visual/cosmetic appeal they offer... there is a GOOD reason many of the big names have moved production to China, they are just better set-up for these kind of production runs.

BUT it got me thinking, why not find a reliable (yes, you CAN find good companies in China!) company that CAN assemble a hardwired amp in China, with boutique parts you would expect to find in amps costs 5-10 times the price?

I've done a fair it of work with the Chinese in the past on a few electronics projects and so started the search and have found a company that has been super forthcoming with info and I've been adamant about the fact this won't be 'cheap' (Chinese factories would rather make stuff as CHEAP as possible to sell more units, they are more than capable of making boutique stuff, they just worry nobody woudl buy it... even if it was 50% less than a USA equivalent), but it will be 'cheaper' and that we need to build it to the same specs/layout/feel that any 50's era point to point amp would have.

It will be ALL valve, no solid state rectifiers, will be built quality parts like Spraque Atoms, Mallory 150's, Carbon Film Resistors in the audio path, Metal Film in the power section and a quality speaker like a Jensen C8R. Valves will be JJ Tesla of course ?

The circuit I've always loved is the 50's era Tweed Princeton, the Narrow Panel 5F2a circuit, a simple tone beast, straight up volume with a tone knob, just to dial off some of those highs... Tweed Champs were used on many a Rolling Stones and Clapton record, amongst others, very little clean headroom (at least for gigging - perfect for home playing), but that glorious valve break-up.

Weber sells a kit version of this amp, and MANY sell it's little brother the 'Classic' 5F1, but even these 'kits' cost R4,500+ (with the SAME parts I've suggested above) then you have to ship them here AND build them... which is great for many, bad for most.

Maybe I'm being optimistic here, but I see a gap for a QUALITY made 5 Watter to rival the 'cheap' chinese amps, but at an affordable price, I'm trying to meet the R5,000 cap, hopefully a bit cheaper. They would be assembled in China, but each amp would be looked over by me and thoroughly tested before shipping out of my workshop.

Being that this is a community of guitarists, what say you? Are you happy with the status quo, or are we looking for something different and unique?

This in no small undertaking, my min order would need to be 50 amps... and with all the parts substitutions it is increasing the build costs dramatically, so there is no way I'm going to retire on this, but if it makes for better tone, then it is at least worth investigating! I must stress it is also a LONG term project, it will take at LEAST 6 months to iron out, prob 8 month before we see a 'commercial' offering.

Now, one thing I could really do with some help on is the cosmetic finish... obviously the circuit is a Tweed Era, but traditionally we see more Black Tolex amps these days and as my wife said to me.... "Not everyone wants a yellow amp", LOL.

Here is a pic of 2 samples finish the factory put together for me, which do you prefer?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts and feedback!

Cheers

Matt

MikeM

If I hadn't just ordered a 5f2 (Kinda) kit from Karel, I'd be interested. Great amp, great price. MUCH cheaper than the 5F1 57 Champ Reissue (A cool $1000) and it'll probably sound as good or better.

Market wise I am not so sure though. People here seem to associate hand made/boutique with bad-quality/knockoff (Well at least in my experience).

matta

Thanks for the input Mike!

MikeM wrote: Market wise I am not so sure though. People here seem to associate hand made/boutique with bad-quality/knockoff (Well at least in my experience).

Strange, you mean hand-made in China, or hand-made in general? I'd agree with the 'generalized' 'handmade in china' deal, but then 90% of production amps today are made in China/the East: Vox, Fender (bar some of the custom shops), Orange even speaker companies like Celestion & Eminence.

Cheers

Matt

MikeM

Hand-made by a general South Africa perception. An amp that does NOT say Fender/Marshall or whatever ?

matta

MikeM wrote: Hand-made by a general South Africa perception. An amp that does NOT say Fender/Marshall or whatever ?

Ah, thanks for the clarification... yes, a hurdle that ANY electronics geek/builder has to over come... I experience this with Ashton Audio, though MOST of my clients are 'big wigs' who have all the name brand stuff and are looking for something unique/boutique/hand built etc. It is generally the 'newcomers' who are looking for 'brand recognition'.... an up hill battle, but one I overcome from time to time ?

I guess as with anything, the proof is in the proverbial pudding!

Cheers

Matt

MikeM

Either way I support what you're doing ? S.A could do with some reasonably priced tube awesomeness!

Hope it works out man.
Mike

AlanRatcliffe

Nice one Matt! In short, an all valve, point-to-point, 4-5W amp at +/- R5K is ideal. Big, pure tone on a small budget. Not much more than the modern PC-based amps.

But R5K for a tweed Princeton clone? Hell, yes - you can put me at the head of that list. I bags serial number 001! ? The 8" speaker is the only thing that I'm not wild about, fine for a practice amp, but a bit small for something that doubles as a small recording amp - so maybe offer an upgrade 10" baffle and speaker (I'd also prefer a front panel, but that's not a deal breaker).

you could, or should be able to get a GREAT amp for that kind of money out of the box!

Couldn't agree more - you'd have to sell them direct to keep them anywhere near that price though. I've looked into the Mojo kits and find them too pricey for an amp I have to assemble myself. Also looked at the Ceriatone, which are cheaper, but the components are nowhere near the same quality. Weber's kind of in-between, but still works out expensive for what it is.

Here is a pic of 2 samples finish the factory put together for me, which do you prefer?

I think guys wanting the more vintage rear panel will want tweed finish - implies a more vintage voiced amp and looks classier. Black looks weird in that config. Black for a front panel. All depends on your target market I suppose. If you want to get the new young crowd in, maybe purple or green tolex. ?

One other small thing is the edge radius is a bit sharp (what is it? A 1/2"?) - they end up looking a bit "boxy" like that (and possibly a bit cheap), so if you can specify a bigger radius like at least a 1/2" or 1" they should look a lot better.

Manfred-Klose

What about just making a head version of the amp?
And sell the cab separately.

Gives room for experimentation with differrent speakers and speaker sizes.
But i geuss the idea is that it should be a small combo amp with 8" or 10" speaker.

PS:i like the yellow one, looks really 50's. ?

my 2cents.

Lethe

I think it's a great idea and I definately would be interested if I was currently looking for an amp. But how many people are looking for an amp right now and have 8 months to wait for it? And most people already have some sort of amp, and even though yours will probably be MUCH better in quality, i don't think many people have spare R5000 lying around to buy a second amp (these kind of people are in my circles at least ? ) I'm not saying it's expensive for such a good amp, I'm just saying some people just dont have the money right now. and a min order of 50 might be difficult to reach.
Yes, I'm a poor student, but it's none the less a perspective that you might be interested in.

Guy-Onraet

Manfred Klose wrote: What about just making a head version of the amp?
And sell the cab separately.

Gives room for experimentation with differrent speakers and speaker sizes.
But i geuss the idea is that it should be a small combo amp with 8" or 10" speaker.

+1
A head would be ideal, especially for giggers wanting to run a 2x10 or bigger.

Alan Ratcliffe wrote:
...maybe purple or green tolex. ?

+1
I think a dark green would work well with the grill cloth.

Good luck! If there is anyone in SA that can pull this off, it's you ?

inflames

This will be a great project and I'm sure you will get them sold.

I like the yellow, looks retro!

I agree with Alan on the speaker. I would also prefer a 10" speaker to a 8".

Keep us updated, maybe you can tell the Cape Town members a bit more at our next meeting?

Best of luck with the project!

guitarboy2828

Wow, I'd totally be in.. I've been wanting to build my own lil 5 watter or mod an epi valve jr, but just don't have the time.

I do think the problem is, we living a country where there isn't a great deal of musicians.. The ones we do have don't usually know the difference between valve and solid and if they do, they want fender or marshal. There are a select few who understand the beauty and magnificence of a hand built amp. So i think you'll battle with your market.

Just to give you a story. In one of the durban pawn shops there was a little fender valve amp, beauty of a thing. Such an amazing sound. The guy was selling it for R1000.. 2 months later it was still there, because people didn't realize the different between a valve amp and a normal little ritmiller or behenger (sp?)..

But I'd totally back this project and order one..
Tweed most certainly and agree, a 10" or a head would be more preferable.

matta

Hey Guys,

Firstly a BIG thank you for all your input, it is invaluable to me and I appreciate you taking the time to offer your thoughts and suggestions.

Alan Ratcliffe wrote:But R5K for a tweed Princeton clone? Hell, yes - you can put me at the head of that list. I bags serial number 001! ? The 8" speaker is the only thing that I'm not wild about, fine for a practice amp, but a bit small for something that doubles as a small recording amp - so maybe offer an upgrade 10" baffle and speaker (I'd also prefer a front panel, but that's not a deal breaker).

Alan, the same company had/have a 10" baffle and cab for the same amp, but it was/is HUGE, this guy takes up alot less real estate. I though the 8" was a good compromise considering that most of these little amps have 6" speaker, the Fender Champ's (600, Vibro Champ etc) as well as the little Gretsch combo.... but I agree that a larger speaker is a good call, just not practical with this set-up... but more on that in a bit...

Couldn't agree more - you'd have to sell them direct to keep them anywhere near that price though. I've looked into the Mojo kits and find them too pricey for an amp I have to assemble myself. Also looked at the Ceriatone, which are cheaper, but the components are nowhere near the same quality. Weber's kind of in-between, but still works out expensive for what it is.

Yeah, that is my problem as well, be it Weber, Mojo or Ceriatone, they ALL work out pretty pricey when you add shipping, duties... and then you have to build it... fine for someone like me, but not everyone has whatever you would call the electronics equivalent to "green fingers". These are not play-play voltages we are dealing with either! Weber is prob. the best compromise, but still expensive and the parts in some case are not at the same level as if you sourced your own.

I think guys wanting the more vintage rear panel will want tweed finish - implies a more vintage voiced amp and looks classier. Black looks weird in that config. Black for a front panel. All depends on your target market I suppose. If you want to get the new young crowd in, maybe purple or green tolex. ?

Indeed, cosmetics are an issue, you're darned if you do and darned if you don't! Someones eye sore is another man masterpiece... it is fine in the USA where you can have someone like Weber/Mojo cover it in whatever you want and it then is TRULY custom.... but the market here is just too small.

One other small thing is the edge radius is a bit sharp (what is it? A 1/2"?) - they end up looking a bit "boxy" like that (and possibly a bit cheap), so if you can specify a bigger radius like at least a 1/2" or 1" they should look a lot better.

Thanks, worth asking about it, but I highly doubt they will change the look and feel just for me... this company is set-up to do LARGE scale production runs, even on this stock cab/finish my min order would need to be at LEAST 50 units... so asking them for custom work will prob. lead to me needing to order larger volumes. I did inquire about buying JUST the cab/chassis and they said it was doable, but I'd need to buy at least 100... and they are NOT cheap, I'll be open and share I'd be paying $120USD, still a far side cheaper than Weber 5F2a chassis and head cab, which are almost $300USD.

What about just making a head version of the amp?

+1 A head would be ideal, especially for giggers wanting to run a 2x10 or bigger.

I've been wanting to build my own lil 5 watter or mod an epi valve jr, but just don't have the time.

Well these are somewhat connected together... another option would be to look at something like the Blackheart or Epi Valve Jr as donor amps, what I like about them is they BOTH have multiple taps to feed 4,8 and 16 ohm cabinets, and offer HEAD and COMBO options, both have Eminence 12" speaker cabs, a great choice for a first time amp buyer, but guys who already own a cab/speaker could just buy the head version.

Both amps were designed/laid out by the same guys and both are VERY 'modifiable'. One of the biggest tonal upgrades that can be done to ANY of these Chinese amps are transformer upgrades, so much of an amps tone is in the iron. I've found a transformer swap can yield a MUCH bigger difference than swapping your brand of valve, esp. in these Chinese amps.

I've been looking at aligning myself with Mercury Magnetics and offering 'upgrades' to these amps, everything from minor changes like hum reduction/DC heaters to totally new circuits and transformer upgrades and I've been encouraging Karel to look into doing some custom trano upgrades as well, and had him start off by winding me a new trano for my 67' Bandmaster (which sounds great!).

Epi have pulled out of SA as you know, but Stateside the Valve Jr Head and the 12" Cab retails for around $280.00, the head costing $129, I could just order a few every few months and sea freight them over, since there is no local support/agent and doing a transformer replacement with the Mercury's would replace the power trafo as well being 115VAC makes it a moot point.

BUT on Valve Jr head @ $129, the Mercury Kit @ $299.00, New Valves @ $20.00, Parts mods/sub @ $20.00 you are at $468.00, obviously there is also shipping duties involved and then labour... so in way it makes it almost as or more expensive that a Weber kit... so we are back to square one...

I think it's a great idea and I definitely would be interested if I was currently looking for an amp. But how many people are looking for an amp right now and have 8 months to wait for it? And most people already have some sort of amp, and even though yours will probably be MUCH better in quality, i don't think many people have spare R5000 lying around to buy a second amp (these kind of people are in my circles at least Wink ) I'm not saying it's expensive for such a good amp, I'm just saying some people just dont have the money right now. and a min order of 50 might be difficult to reach. Yes, I'm a poor student, but it's none the less a perspective that you might be interested in.

Lethe, thanks for that, firstly I'd not expect anyone to have to put up the money for this venture! I'd be going it alone, I just want to know if there is a supply/demand for it... this thread has been enlightening and I feel that it may well not be worth it as it will be HUGE financial outlay on my behalf, and being self-employed makes this a VERY scary venture... your points of course give me the other side the spectrum, the sobering/somber side, that is VERY important to me!

Keep us updated, maybe you can tell the Cape Town members a bit more at our next meeting?

I will indeed, I may just go ahead and buy an Epi/Blackheart and mod it for my own enjoyment and then see if it stands up there in regards to an 'off the shelf' option and may just continue to offer these mods to owners of these amps (which I've been doing anyway, at least with the Fender 600's).

I do think the problem is, we living a country where there isn't a great deal of musicians.. The ones we do have don't usually know the difference between valve and solid and if they do, they want fender or marshal. There are a select few who understand the beauty and magnificence of a hand built amp. So i think you'll battle with your market.

I agree, again sobering, but a reality, but it is Forums like this that allows us to broaden our horizons and I thank Alan and Norio for allowing us to communicate so freely about these issues.

I guess at the end of the day I'm just looking to see where my technical skills can best be used to service and support our local muso community.

I still have my Fuzzsilla stomp box on the brew and have a working prototype doing the rounds. I'm still thinking about offering it as a kit and teaching a 'basic audio electronics' module/workshop to fellow musos and def. have my eyes on an attenuator project, but Graeme already has his working prototype (which I hope he gets into production).

Again, thank you all for your thoughts, suggestions and support!

Cheers

Matt

racman

How about a "faux" snake/crocodile skin covering instead of black or tweed? ? ?

aja

racman wrote: How about a "faux" snake/crocodile skin covering instead of black or tweed? ? ?

Are you serious? I thought that looks so porno hehe

racman

aja wrote:
racman wrote: How about a "faux" snake/crocodile skin covering instead of black or tweed? ? ?
Are you serious? I thought that looks so porno hehe

YB Normal ? 8) ?

Lethe

"YB" does not register in my dictionary. Please check spelling and/or rephrase.

FenderBender

I really like the yellow cab Matt. Nice n retro!

[deleted]

I would be interested, nice tweed colour, but definitly with a 10" speaker for me to but once I hear it I might be convinced.

It still doesn't stop me however from wanting a Dr Z Maz 18NR and a Swart AST ?

Matta could you build me a Swart AST clone? ? hehe

I know a few that would be interested in the 5watter. I like the idea, for a travel amp, up and down. I think having a little 5w that has great quality and at a decent price can't go wrong..

brand it here with Ashton Audio and approach some Music Stores ?

Gearhead

Matt, I hope I do not come across like I'm trying to say things everyone knows already but I really would like to persuade you to build the amp here in SA.

I am wondering if the Chinese manufacture is going to be a cost saver in the end. Would the transport cost of 50 tube amps (albeit small ones) not set you back quite a bit? Would you not fly there at least once to close the deal and take a look at the factory? The cost of producing them right here in SA might wind up in the same ballpark and you would have the added advantage of being able to control quality yourself.

I would imagine many South Africans to prefer buying SA made over Chinese made. If you want to think exporting to Europe and the States, this becomes even more important because (as you pointed out yourself) Chinese is often associated with cheap.

It would take a good plan though. Being a follower of the 'focus on where you add most value' philosophy, I think there is something in between building the whole amp yourself or having it built for you. In your case, the design / components selection / marketing probably adds most value, followed by assembly and (I agree) you should stay away from making anything yourself. But you might be successful in assembly if you teach a nonskilled worker exactly what to do.

If you can find a custom kitchen manufacturer in the neighbourhood they are likely to be able to rout any size panels for the cab (including Alan's radius) and they would also have no problem with the cab assembly. The chassis can be cut or punched and bent by most any job shop, including paint finish. The tolex and grill cloth are a simple job for any upholsterer. Leaves the transformer winding (on which Karel might be able to make a plan) and the screwing/soldering (that you need a labourer for as mentioned). Times are tough for suppliers mentioned so the price will be negotiable. The company I work for saved about 20-50% on bought outs in the past 6 months... The work you outsource you can also reject if it is not up to standard as long as the drawings are clear.

I offer to make the CAD drawings if you need them. For vely vely cheap.